URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

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Re: URGENT BEARDIE CAN'T SWALLOW

Postby ChubbyTrudy » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:43 pm

Would iron and b12 shots able to help her? I want to do everything I can to help her. She is sleeping on my chest at the moment. She doesn't have a black beard anymore, no black tail, and her eyes are not sunken in. Right now her stomach and beard are a better color. No darkness on beard but slight marks on belly. I've given her water and she has drank a lot with no problems with choking. She seems to be more happier sleeping rather than basking in the light. Could it be that she is brumating? Do bearded dragon's blood count get lower during brumation?
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE CAN'T SWALLOW

Postby ChubbyTrudy » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:46 pm

Wisewolf does your vet do blood transfusion for reptiles? I can't find one here in MN that does it. It seems like no one in mn is willing to help her. I've emailed countless vets. Still waiting for their reply but some have told me I need to come in to have her checked. I'm planning on going to another vet but I'm afraid that this vet will not know what to do for her either
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE CAN'T SWALLOW/ANEMIC

Postby Drache613 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:23 am

Hello,

Thanks for posting the blood work.
The Hemoglobin/iron levels are a bit low. You can try getting some liquid iron drops to give
to her a few times per week. Be sure to get dark leafy greens into her also, to help with iron
intake.
The lymphocytes are up a little bit so she could be fighting some type of infection right now.
The glucose levels are not horrible. They can be affected easily by stress or too much fruit
intake also.
The CPK (creatinine phosphokinase) is usually elevated after a blood draw. It is a very
sensitive enzyme that can become higher simply from stress, muscle trauma or injury.
A few B12 shots might help, sure. Keep getting fluids into her also. I'm glad to hear she
doesn't have a black beard right now & is sleeping comfortably too.

Keep us posted on her. While technically she might be wanting to brumate, for now, I would
not let her brumate until you have a handle on what's going on with her first.

Tracie
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE CAN'T SWALLOW/ANEMIC

Postby ChubbyTrudy » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:25 pm

Drache613 wrote:Hello,

Thanks for posting the blood work.
The Hemoglobin/iron levels are a bit low. You can try getting some liquid iron drops to give
to her a few times per week. Be sure to get dark leafy greens into her also, to help with iron
intake.
The lymphocytes are up a little bit so she could be fighting some type of infection right now.
The glucose levels are not horrible. They can be affected easily by stress or too much fruit
intake also.
The CPK (creatinine phosphokinase) is usually elevated after a blood draw. It is a very
sensitive enzyme that can become higher simply from stress, muscle trauma or injury.
A few B12 shots might help, sure. Keep getting fluids into her also. I'm glad to hear she
doesn't have a black beard right now & is sleeping comfortably too.

Keep us posted on her. While technically she might be wanting to brumate, for now, I would
not let her brumate until you have a handle on what's going on with her first.

Tracie


Hi tracie thanks for letting me know. Do you know where I can buy iron drops and b12 drops? is there a certain brand that I can buy? and how many drops to give her. I don't really know how to administer it. Should I dilute the drops? thanks so much for that

Anyway the dr called this morning and he thinks that her liver and kidneys are fine. Only major concern is the low blood count. He thinks that maybe it might be a tumor in her liver, lymph nodes, or bone marrow. He said her liver looks a bit enlarged and that there are gas in her lungs which is why she might have trouble breathing? She seems to breath fine though, sometimes there are gasps for air, but she has always do that gasping for a long long time. I went to 2 other vets for her mouth gasping awhile back and they couldn't find the problem even though they did xray and examine her mouth and body.

She seems to be swallowing fine now. No more black tail, black beard, and sunken eyes. I think this was the first time she was ever stressed out so much from choking on the turnips. Never have she ever been that stressed. After a few days I feel like she is getting better. It seems like the major issue is anemia and don't know the reason why its like that.

I'm planning to go to the vet on Saturday to give her iron and b12 shots. The dr said I could do an ultrasound if I wanted but that would be $500 and if she does have cancer or tumor there is nothing he can do anyway. He didn't think iron or b12 shots would help her either.

So far I feel like he as a dr gives up so easily. He hasn't recommended anything I can do to help her besides saying to give her as much comfort. He had misdiagnosed her saying she had kidney failure before. Before he also recommended me not to do the full blood work because he said it wouldn't change the fact that she had kidney failure or cancer. He said he was 90% sure it was kidney but lab values looked fine.

I feel like maybe sometimes dr can be wrong. The other vet I went to thought she had pneumonia in her lungs and constipation or impaction of stools. And when I went to him, he told me she was wrong about the constipation & pneumonia. The lady dr recommended me to see another doctor at another vet because he specialized in exotics/reptiles. But when I went to this male dr on tues, he told me that the dr she recommended me is not board certified? I feel like we as owners should go with our gut instincts and know what's best for our beardie babies.
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby Drache613 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:27 am

Hello,

That is very frustrating, getting different information from every vet. I'm sorry that they
haven't been helpful or compassionate at all.
You should be able to purchase liquid iron & liquid B12 at most health food/vitamin stores
I believe. You can use human grade but it doesn't take much. It is usually fairly standard
across the board as far as strength goes, with some variance. I would give just a drop or
two daily for those.
Are you going to take her back to the vet then for a couple of shots if he will do it?
If her liver is slightly enlarged, that will definitely cause trouble with breathing or swallowing
sometimes. Milk thistle is helpful in liver support so you could also try that for her too.
Does she have a good amount of urates when she goes to the bathroom? That indicates
renal function too.
How is she doing today?

Tracie
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby ChubbyTrudy » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:40 pm

Drache613 wrote:Hello,

That is very frustrating, getting different information from every vet. I'm sorry that they
haven't been helpful or compassionate at all.
You should be able to purchase liquid iron & liquid B12 at most health food/vitamin stores
I believe. You can use human grade but it doesn't take much. It is usually fairly standard
across the board as far as strength goes, with some variance. I would give just a drop or
two daily for those.
Are you going to take her back to the vet then for a couple of shots if he will do it?
If her liver is slightly enlarged, that will definitely cause trouble with breathing or swallowing
sometimes. Milk thistle is helpful in liver support so you could also try that for her too.
Does she have a good amount of urates when she goes to the bathroom? That indicates
renal function too.
How is she doing today?

Tracie


Thanks so much Tracie. I just wished the vets would care more but most importantly I just hope Trudy feels better. I'm so glad I'm able to get helpful information here and from you. Really appreciate it. Trudy is doing better. Her color is getting better too. She is still being hand fed though. She won't eat on her own but can swallow/drink fine again. Her energy levels are still low, dont know if it's because it's winter here. Usually during the summer time I'll bring her out to the park to sun bathe and she usually more active in the summertime. So hopefully its because the weather here has been really cold that she doesn't move too much.

She doesn't move around but is active looking around at the lights and occasionally opens her mouth like she always have been. At night she gets more yellow and happier it seems when shes sleeping. She's the most yellow during bedtime. She hasn't pooped anything or any urates yet. I'll look into the iron and b12 drops. Do you recommend a brand that I can buy? There's so many out there and I don't know which ones are the best.

Also, in your earlier post you said something about her lymphocytes are up a bit and that could mean an infection? are you talking about the WBC or the Azurophils? I asked another dr about it and she thinks it might be some kind of infection and she recommended maybe some antibiotics but I would have to go see her. She's at another vet clinic. But this other dr, that I've been seeing thinks there is no infection. So I'm not quite sure what to do.

Yesterday Trudy got her b12 shot but the dr wasn't there on site because it was his day off. On Fri. I called him and told him about the iron and b12 shots and he said he would get it ready for me on Saturday. Saturday comes and the tech took Trudy to the back to give the shots. I examined Trudy and asked how many shots she got because I got a feeling something is wrong. The tech told me she only gave the b12. I asked her why not the iron shot as well? she told me the dr didn't recommended it. I told her he told me on Wed that he will get it ready for her. So they called him and ask, and he told them it will be too toxic because her hemoglobin levels are normal. But looking at the blood work, her hemoglobin are <4.0 and normals are 6.0-14.

He said he will call me tomorrow to talk about this. I don't know what to think. Do you think her blood work is okay for her to get iron shots and b12?
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby ChubbyTrudy » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:21 pm

I hope this journey with Trudy and trying to find what is going on with her can help others with similar issues with anemia, possible tumor, trouble swallowing etc. Since bearded dragons hide their illnesses so well it seems like they are fine but actually something might be going on. It’s so hard when they can’t tell us how they feel.
This is Trudy on our way back to the vet. I was pretty bummed out because she couldn’t get her iron shot because she has low blood count (6% RBC on her blood work). Time is everything and the fact that it could of helped her just a bit would of made a difference.
[Click image to enlarge]

Trudy is looking up at the sky and she loves car rides during the summer time
[Click image to enlarge]

This photo is taking today while she rests on her favorite hammock and mitten under her neck. She sleeps with her mitten every night
[Click image to enlarge]

Still lethargic and not moving around. Color is better and no stress marks. Still being hand fed and drinking water from dropper
[Click image to enlarge]

This is Trudy when I’m feeding her collard/kale juice. She doesn’t like it but occasionally opens her mouth. She opens her mouth all the time even when she is not basking.
[Click image to enlarge]

[Click image to enlarge]

I’m afraid that she might not get better but I’m hoping that she will. She hasn’t been mellow like she used to be.
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby Drache613 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:23 am

Hello,

How is Trudy doing this evening?
So her color is better? Bless her. What other things do you include in with her slurry along
with the kale? I'm glad that she is taking in some food though, even if you are having to hand
feed her.
Be sure you are keeping her a little warmer at night, too for help with her immune system right
now while she isn't feeling well. We are all pulling for her.

Tracie
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby AHBD » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:28 am

I'm thinking of Trudy as well, how is she doing ?
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby CooperDragon » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:33 pm

I'm thinking of her as well. The slurry around her mouth reminds me of my Dundee. Best wishes to you both!
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby ChubbyTrudy » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:58 pm

Sorry for the long post again.

Thanks so much Tracie, AHBD, and Cooperdragon, and everyone else who has helped. Trudy is still the same. Doesn't move and don't eat by herself. So I have to hand feed her still. Every time she opens her mouth i carefully put food in her mouth little bit at a time. I've been chopping up collards into really tiny tiny fine pieces for her to swallow. It seems she swallows better when it's finely chopped. I spray a vitamin supplement from Zilla with beta carotene and sprinkle repti calcium on the collards. I give her crickets dipped into critical care because she don't like critical care by itself. I also give her chicken and gravy baby food. The kale and collard juice is just a slurry by itself. I also have Repashy grub pie and veggie burger as well, but I haven't given her yet because I'm trying to get her to eat more iron from the kale and collards.

After I get the items I bought from the shop I can add more vitamins and pro-biotics to her food. Thanks Tracie for shipping them out so quick really appreciate it. Can't wait to have Trudy try some. I also bought Rep-cal herptivite vitamins and rep-cal calcium phosphorus free that I need to go pick up from Petco. I'm planning to just mix up the vitamins and pro-biotics couple times a week to give to her.

I've also been giving her warm baths everyday and rubbing her belly. She pooped today and I think she used up most of her energy pushing it out. Here is a photo of it:

[Click image to enlarge]

It looks really green, probably from all the collards and kale she has been eating. I'm glad that her digestive system is working. I'm planning to send her poop out to the vet tomorrow. Just stored it in the fridge. Hopefully to see if they can find anything that's related to her anemia.

Anyway on Monday the vet called me and he told me he doesn't recommend the iron shot. He said they usually use "iron dextran" to give for anemia but he talked to another well known herp exotic vet named "Jim", and he said iron can be easily build up in the body and not get absorbed and can lead to toxicity. He told me I should buy Flintstone iron for kids to give to Trudy. I'm just wondering if anyone has experience using Flintstone iron for kids? He said sprinkle some couple times a week in her salads. I'm planning on picking up some but just wary about the ingredients in there because the ones I found online have other vitamins/ingredients in it as well.

I'm planning to keep her comfortable at the moment, trying to feed her iron rich foods, vitamins, pro-biotics to help her for the time being. She will get her b12 shot again in 9 days again. I'll also give her warm baths everyday to help with her hydration. I've been giving her a beardie massage everyday to help with her blood circulation. I don't know if it will do anything but she does seem to enjoy it. After 2-3 weeks I'm planning to do another bloodwork on her. At the moment she gets stressed really easily so I don't want to do any ultrasound yet. Just taking little steps at a time.

The Dr. doesn't recommend an ultrasound because if there is something wrong with her liver(tumor?), he said he won't be able to do anything anyway and it will just make her stressed. I'm hoping she will get her energy back and then we will do an ultrasound. The vet also said if it isn't her liver, then it might be her bone marrow and the ultrasound will not show it. In that case he said we can do a CT, but that's 4-5 hours away to another vet in Wisconsin because MN don't have anyone who is certified and knows CT. He already sent a referral. I'm just waiting for the right time to do it.

If by that time Trudy has no energy and is deteriorating and in pain, I think the best thing I can do for her is to put her to sleep. Maybe getting a vet to come to the house to do it at the comfort of our home because she never liked being at the vet. It's the last thing I could do for her. The vets keeps telling me to euthanize her but I'm still having hope that she will get better. I will let everyone know how Trudy will be doing if she is getting better or worse.

Thanks so much everyone for all the help. Will update again.
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby ChubbyTrudy » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:06 pm

Here are some old photos of Trudy just to show how she used to look like and now. Take care everyone I hope no one has to go through this like I did. I hope great health for everyone and their beardies. Let's all think positive, that's the only thing we can do.

[Click image to enlarge]

[Click image to enlarge]

[Click image to enlarge]

[Click image to enlarge]
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby CooperDragon » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:23 pm

The poop color is definitely from the food and to be expected. I don't see any blue tint to the urate which is encouraging. I would be cautious about adding supplements and would likely focus more on iron rich foods added to the slurry. Dark greens, green beans, acorn squash, things along those lines. She has such a nice bright happy yellow beard in those photos =)
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby AHBD » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:23 pm

Thanks for the update, I'm sorry you + trudy are going through such stress but at least she still takes food and her poo looks very healthy. If the vet says Flintsone vitamins I guess that could easily be added to her slurry or other feedings. And I think you're doing everything right for her in this condition, so good for you for your efforts in making her comfortable. I would maybe just do one thing different, maybe do the baths every 2-3 days rather than every day. And I agree that if she gets to where she's in chronic pain, then it would be time but for now she is hanging in there so that's a positive. Maybe the vitamins will help a bit. How about beet powder, I know that has a lot of iron ?
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Re: URGENT BEARDIE SWALLOWING/ANEMIC/TUMOR?

Postby ChubbyTrudy » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:23 pm

Yes I always love that yellow beard of hers. Hope I can see it again. Thanks so much AHBD and cooperdragon I'll go shopping for some fresh veggies/fruits for her. I'll look into the beet root as well. Thanks for the helpful tips really appreciate it =).
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