My beardie had seizures and now neurological problems??

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laurenB

Member
I am at my wits end agonizing over my poor beardie, Mr. Lizard :(
He is 4 years old. I bought him at a reptile expo in December 2013 and he was a little baby, maybe couple months. He was missing a leg and we felt sorry for him so we bought him along with another female. The female died suddenly and sadly during the following year when we had returned home from work out of state for 4 months. (left her in care that we trust) so her sudden death was odd and also confusing as I was unable to observe any symptoms leading up to it.

Up until 2 months ago, Mr Lizard was doing great. I left for a weeklong trip on Sept 6th, had his lights on a timer, left him in the care of a friend. When I returned home on Sept 12th, I noticed that he did not eat ANY of his beardie bites. They were all crusty on the floor of his cage. He had been eating them every day for me prior, so this sudden change was very odd. He loved eating flukers grasshoppers and crickets however, so he got those to eat. I offered him beardie bites but he was never again interested. I offered him some veggies and fruit on occasion and he was only minorly interested. He'd eat a few bites, thats it. I also noticed he started sleeping more. At first this wasn't a major concern but after about a week I started my online research. The temps had just started changing here in Louisiana so I figured brumation. I read this could last a while. Seeing no other worrying symptoms, I figured this was it. However, one time I reached into his cage to feed him a grasshopper and he had a weird difficulty taking it from me. He seemed disoriented like he couldnt figure out where to flick his tongue to catch it. I put it in his vision on the side of his head, and he then took it. I noted it was odd, but he'd never done it before so I wasn't too worried. About a week later, we returned home from the grocery store with some kale for him. My gf reached into his cage and he put his head WAY back, his beard flared up, his eyes rolled back and he was moving uncontrollably. He was not in control of his movements, and we think it was some sort of seizure. He was moving his arms alot and then it subsided. We were VERY concerned. We didn't want to disturb him anymore after this stressful event so we let him be and discussed what to do. Did online research. Next morning, I tried to feed again, same thing. Minor seizing event with head back and arms flailing. He was not doing well. He then mentally seemed to not be there anymore. We were very distressed. Made the decision to maybe euthanize, he wouldnt respond to crickets or a bath or anything. He was limp. His eyes didn't respond to movement or stimuli. Before we made our final decision, I tried to give him water to drink through a needleless syringe. He drank. I got my hopes VERY high. I even went so far as to make him a "bug smoothie". Water, pedialyte, squashed calcium dusted crickets, smashed beardie bites and two smashed superworms. He has only drank this for days. Upon more online education, learned that UVB lights have to be changed every 6 months and cannot have plastic in front of them. I inspected my UVB to find the manufacturer placed PLASTIC ON THE FIXTURE!!!! I was absolutely enraged. I ripped off the plastic. Went and bought a new reptisun 10.0 from pet smart. Got a thermostat with probe just to be positive of his temps. (his temps were good). I was now sure he is getting proper UVB and temps, was getting fluids and calcium, and just held on hoping. I saw no improvement in a couple days. In fact a new symptom popped up. Head tilting and walking in a wide circle. Took him to vet. She did a very thorough examination and asked many questions. She does not have a very good outlook for him. I suspected MBD, she doesnt think its that bc he has good weight, bone structure and muscle tone. He is dehydrated, so I have been soaking for 20 minutes each day. She thinks it may be adenovirus in which case there is not much hope. I am thinking that I will make the call to euthanize either tomorrow or next day bc after all this supportive care, I see no improvement :( I am very worried that he is suffering. I also don't want to throw in the towel too quickly. I don't know what else to do :(

His list of symptoms starting in order of appearance:
1.Decreased/selective appetite (only wants grasshoppers, and eagerly eats them)
2. Lethargy, sleeping more and mostly on cool side of cage
3. one episode of strange reaction trying to catch grasshopper from my fingers
4. Extreme seizing reaction to kale, head tilted way back, beard flared, uncontrolled movements
5. Bowel movement day after first seize. had urate, but looked a bit slimy and I suspected maybe bloody? I thought maybe a dark reddish hue. Unsure. Then another seizing episode, less severe
6. Mental blankness. Eyes don't respond. Won't respond to live crickets or a worm
7. Very weak, limp to pick up. No response to warm bath
8. Restless in cage. Sleeps short periods, then moves around as if uncomfortable :(
9. Responded to being offered liquid in syringe, drank.
10. Tilted head and walking in wide circles.

From the first seizure, all of these things happened within about 4 or 5 days. Vet visit yesterday. Soak baths yesterday and today. Doesn't want the prescribed liquid diet from vet. Doesn't want plain water. Only drinks my little bug smoothie. Mental blankness. Always has dark beard and tail. Labored breathing. Restless in his tank. He has SO many symptoms that all seem to crossover with potential illnesses or sicknesses. My poor Mr. Lizard :( I am just so vexed as to how he has gone down so fast. And I feel like it is all my fault :(
 

laurenB

Member
Original Poster
I should clarify that his urate was white, but the stool looked as if it might be watery, slimy, and had a dark reddish tint that I suspected. Also, in his first soak bath he drank water on his own which was comforting to see. But today, its grim. Only grim. If it was parasites, would that cause his seizures and subsequent mental blankness? Dehydration, possible lack of calcium ( but no suspected MBD), possible UVB deficiency, all of these things in my research can't account for his mental lacking. He is not there. Also, when I gently try to pick him up and open his little mouth for liquid, sometimes he jerks his head in a quick twitch. I think he has so many ailments that I have no choice but to euthanize :( I feel like I have completely failed him :(
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I am sorry about Mr. Lizard, I hate to hear that. Please don't blame yourself, we all make
mistakes. You are doing your best to correct it & we'll see what we can do to help as much
as we can.
Did you mount the new Reptisun 10 underneath of the screen within a 6-8 inch range from
him?
What type of calcium do you have him on? Did the vet not give you a liquid form of it to
help him out? A liquid would absorb much better than the powder & more quickly, too.
Adenovirus seems unlikely since he is just now exhibiting symptoms, but something you can
test for easily. If you want to get him tested, please sign up on my adeno website at:
www.thepats.info
Be sure to include your mailing address to where I can send your swab & form. The test is
only $19.
Was a blood test done on him or not, just x-rays? Feel free to post pictures of him along
with your tank setup for us also so we can see his condition.
His symptoms sound a lot like metabolic bone disease though. When symptoms arise such
as the seizures, & other odd neurological problems it takes awhile for their calcium levels
to get back to normal. Fixing the UVB issue will help a lot, but it will take some time.
How are you trying to get him to eat, dropping food onto the end of his nose with a plastic
dropper or syringe? You can try getting some chicken or turkey baby food, mixed with either
sweet potatoes or squash baby food to help with nutrition.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
 

laurenB

Member
Original Poster
Thank you for your reply. She only did a visual and physical examination. The blood test was $140 and would take a week to be sent off to Miami, she said. She left it up to me of course, but kind of made it sound like it wasn't necessary bc she really thought it was adeno and not MBD. She said in any case we can try intensive supportive care. I will post some pics of his enclosure tomorrow. His lights are off now, and he has been sleeping for a while, don't want to disturb :( Also to be noted, the vet instructed me to throw away any natural wood or rocks, so I did and now his tank is "empty" almost. Just a hammock, rocks, and couple rock food dishes. The new reptisun is sitting on top of the metal screen and is 18 inches across. I've read conflicting advice for how close to mount it so I left it on top of his screen. I wouldnt know how to mount it any closer to him underneath the actual screen and inside the tank? I worry that he is suffering and that I am too late. The vet did not give me a liquid form of calcium, no. Can I get that at petsmart? or only a vet? He mostly slides around on his belly in the tank. His mental blankness has me feeling the most hopeless. I get him to eat his liquid "bug smoothie" i made for him by picking him up gently, and pulling down his lip until I get the dropper in his mouth. Sometimes it takes a few tries but he gets it and slurps it on his own. When I try just water or the diet the vet gave, he doesnt want it.
 

laurenB

Member
Original Poster
Sorry, forgot to answer also that the UVB is 15 and a half inches distance from screen to tank floor. Also, his calcium powder is from pet smart, its flukers repta calcium with d3.
 

laurenB

Member
Original Poster
Also, she gave me a pain/inflamation medication but said definitely don't give it to him unless he is hydrated bc it will "fry his kidneys". I am now scared to give it to him bc I don't know if he is hydrated enough. I haven't given him any yet. I only got maybe 2 cc's worth of liquid in him today. Sorry for multiple replies
 

laurenB

Member
Original Poster
I will consider the test for Adeno, how long will it take for me to receive, complete, mail back and get results? I am willing to try if you think it might not be too late for him. I don't want him to be continually struggling/suffering.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
laurenB":29dxxlbk said:
Sorry, forgot to answer also that the UVB is 15 and a half inches distance from screen to tank floor. Also, his calcium powder is from pet smart, its flukers repta calcium with d3.


Too far .... and relocate it so it and the reflector hood is UNDER the screen lid
See this for why : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611

note the screen lid will be blocking up to 40% of the UV.

Can you take her into the sun for an hour each day and just sit with her on your lap or tummy or chest.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
laurenB":a1au6t7w said:
Thank you for your reply. She only did a visual and physical examination. The blood test was $140 and would take a week to be sent off to Miami, she said. She left it up to me of course, but kind of made it sound like it wasn't necessary bc she really thought it was adeno and not MBD. She said in any case we can try intensive supportive care. I will post some pics of his enclosure tomorrow. His lights are off now, and he has been sleeping for a while, don't want to disturb :( Also to be noted, the vet instructed me to throw away any natural wood or rocks, so I did and now his tank is "empty" almost. Just a hammock, rocks, and couple rock food dishes. The new reptisun is sitting on top of the metal screen and is 18 inches across. I've read conflicting advice for how close to mount it so I left it on top of his screen. I wouldnt know how to mount it any closer to him underneath the actual screen and inside the tank? I worry that he is suffering and that I am too late. The vet did not give me a liquid form of calcium, no. Can I get that at petsmart? or only a vet? He mostly slides around on his belly in the tank. His mental blankness has me feeling the most hopeless. I get him to eat his liquid "bug smoothie" i made for him by picking him up gently, and pulling down his lip until I get the dropper in his mouth. Sometimes it takes a few tries but he gets it and slurps it on his own. When I try just water or the diet the vet gave, he doesnt want it.

I suggest you make sure she gets at least 14 hr of exposure to UV from the tube once you adjust the setup as suggested , whether she's awake or asleep , she needs the UVB to absorb the calcium and make VitD3 , and the UVA to improve her neurological condition.

I wouldn't discount ADV as the cause, since your other dragon was infected , so it's likely (more than likely she is too) and a her decline in health likely allowed the virus to become symptomatic because her immune system is bad ATM.
Keep her warm 24/7 while she's sick, it'll boost her metabolism and immune system.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
laurenB":23iin5aw said:
Also, she gave me a pain/inflamation medication but said definitely don't give it to him unless he is hydrated bc it will "fry his kidneys". I am now scared to give it to him bc I don't know if he is hydrated enough. I haven't given him any yet. I only got maybe 2 cc's worth of liquid in him today. Sorry for multiple replies
Nice moist poos are a good indicator of hydration.

Bloods will have shown if her kidneys are compromised. Sounds like the vet took one look and put in the too hard basket and decided she was not worth the bother to save .... I'm not impressed, I suggest finding a new vet .
 

laurenB

Member
Original Poster
Thanks for reply, kingofnobbys. I will adjust the light, maybe I'll have to send a pic of setup i don't understand how Im supposed to position this UVB light inside the tank, there is nowhere to secure it on the glass, and nowhere other than the tank floor? The vet did take a considerable amount of time with us and asked lots and lots of questions so I don't think its for lack of concern. Money is going to be an issue at some point, I have 2 dogs and 3 cats which also take up lots of funds and I am currently unemployed relying on my savings. I don't think I can run all over town to different herb vets. I'm in a very tough spot. I know nothing of what my other beardie died of. It was years ago, and suddenly, and I have a tough time recalling any other details about it. I will put Mr. Lizard in the direct sun tomorrow if it is not raining but I need some direction for how to position the light in his tank. I'm really grateful for any help and advice.
 

laurenB

Member
Original Poster
kingofnobbys":36yqd3ai said:
laurenB":36yqd3ai said:
Sorry, forgot to answer also that the UVB is 15 and a half inches distance from screen to tank floor. Also, his calcium powder is from pet smart, its flukers repta calcium with d3.


Too far .... and relocate it so it and the reflector hood is UNDER the screen lid
See this for why : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611

note the screen lid will be blocking up to 40% of the UV.

Can you take her into the sun for an hour each day and just sit with her on your lap or tummy or chest.


Need a way to attach the fixture to the underneath of the screen and there is nothing on the fixture itself to help me attach. Would just some regular zip ties suffice? Or is attaching to the underside of screen still too far above?
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
laurenB":262fggu8 said:
kingofnobbys":262fggu8 said:
laurenB":262fggu8 said:
Sorry, forgot to answer also that the UVB is 15 and a half inches distance from screen to tank floor. Also, his calcium powder is from pet smart, its flukers repta calcium with d3.


Too far .... and relocate it so it and the reflector hood is UNDER the screen lid
See this for why : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611

note the screen lid will be blocking up to 40% of the UV.

Can you take her into the sun for an hour each day and just sit with her on your lap or tummy or chest.



Need a way to attach the fixture to the underneath of the screen and there is nothing on the fixture itself to help me attach. Would just some regular zip ties suffice? Or is attaching to the underside of screen still too far above?
Yes.

Cable ties are pretty strong and very cheap , simply slip two unfastened ties through the mesh , form two loops (one each cable tie around each end of the hood , tighten and job done.
Some also string to do the same job.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Okay, please do not euthanize him based on what that vet told you, she was not a reptile vet and unfortunately it's quite obvious she doesn't know what she's talking about at all, as Knobbys said, "She put this in the too hard to bother with" basket and that was it...

Very, very, very likely MBD and possibly a combo of Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) deficiency. He's not ever had adequate UVB light (Zilla tube/fixture I'm assuming with the plastic cover), the he's never manufactured any vitamin D3 on his own, this he's not absorbed any Calcium. THE ONLY WAY A VET CAN DIAGNOSE MBD IS BY X-RAY OR BLOOD WORK, NOT JUST BY LOOKING AT HIM, ABD HIS HISTORY SHOULD HAVE MADE IT QUITE OBVIOUS TO HER.

You were given very bad advice and false info by a vet who should have just said "I'm not a reptile specialist". I'm betting had she done a regular, flat x-ray his bone density would be horrible.

That being said, you cannot expect him to get better overnight from MBD, but especially not if you have a Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube on top of the mesh and 15 inches away, he's still not gotten any UVB light, nor any liquid Calcium, which you can actually buy at Petco/PetSmart, and he'll absorb it much more quickly and readily, as long as he's getting adequate UVB light.

Poke 4 holes in the mesh and then use those long, plastic Zip ties to attach the entire fixture to the underside of the mesh. I don't know why the vet made you get rid of all his wood/rocks, but he'll need a Basking platform that will get his Basking Spot within 6" of the unobstructed UVB tube. And make sure that the bright white basking bulb is right alongside the UVB tube, and both are directly over the basking platform, inside the Hot Side of the enclosure. Be sure both lights are on for no less than 14 hours a day. And try to get him some liquid Calcium, in the meantime dust all his bugs in Calcium powder with vitamin D3 after you get the UVB tube mounted correctly. A T8 strength UVB tube does not penetrate mesh well enough to reach your beardie, and even without the mesh the UVB light needs to be at least within 6" to give him adequate UVB light.

I know you're frustrated and concerned, but give him a few days under a properly mounted UVB tube that is within a distance that it will reach him, and while dusting the insects he'll eat in the Calcium. Do this before you make any rash decisions based on what an unqualified vet told you, because I'd bet my life he has severe MBD. He'd have to without any UVB light for what, years? Months?
 

laurenB

Member
Original Poster
EllenD":24wv85ey said:
Okay, please do not euthanize him based on what that vet told you, she was not a reptile vet and unfortunately it's quite obvious she doesn't know what she's talking about at all, as Knobbys said, "She put this in the too hard to bother with" basket and that was it...

Very, very, very likely MBD and possibly a combo of Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) deficiency. He's not ever had adequate UVB light (Zilla tube/fixture I'm assuming with the plastic cover), the he's never manufactured any vitamin D3 on his own, this he's not absorbed any Calcium. THE ONLY WAY A VET CAN DIAGNOSE MBD IS BY X-RAY OR BLOOD WORK, NOT JUST BY LOOKING AT HIM, ABD HIS HISTORY SHOULD HAVE MADE IT QUITE OBVIOUS TO HER.

You were given very bad advice and false info by a vet who should have just said "I'm not a reptile specialist". I'm betting had she done a regular, flat x-ray his bone density would be horrible.

That being said, you cannot expect him to get better overnight from MBD, but especially not if you have a Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube on top of the mesh and 15 inches away, he's still not gotten any UVB light, nor any liquid Calcium, which you can actually buy at Petco/PetSmart, and he'll absorb it much more quickly and readily, as long as he's getting adequate UVB light.

Poke 4 holes in the mesh and then use those long, plastic Zip ties to attach the entire fixture to the underside of the mesh. I don't know why the vet made you get rid of all his wood/rocks, but he'll need a Basking platform that will get his Basking Spot within 6" of the unobstructed UVB tube. And make sure that the bright white basking bulb is right alongside the UVB tube, and both are directly over the basking platform, inside the Hot Side of the enclosure. Be sure both lights are on for no less than 14 hours a day. And try to get him some liquid Calcium, in the meantime dust all his bugs in Calcium powder with vitamin D3 after you get the UVB tube mounted correctly. A T8 strength UVB tube does not penetrate mesh well enough to reach your beardie, and even without the mesh the UVB light needs to be at least within 6" to give him adequate UVB light.

I know you're frustrated and concerned, but give him a few days under a properly mounted UVB tube that is within a distance that it will reach him, and while dusting the insects he'll eat in the Calcium. Do this before you make any rash decisions based on what an unqualified vet told you, because I'd bet my life he has severe MBD. He'd have to without any UVB light for what, years? Months?


Thank you thank you thank you for this advice. I took some string and hung his UVB inside the cage. It's about 7 inches from light to the top of his body. Going get some liquid calcium today. He does not respond to crickets or anything I offer him on his own. I have to force feed him very slowly with syringe until he laps it up from me. The vet did not suggest I euthanize, I was feeling guilty that he was suffering and I was not having any improvement. As for his UVB, I SPECIFICALLY TOLD HER THAT ID LEARNED THAT PLASTIC COMPLETELY BLOCKS OUT UVB AND THAT THIS FIXTURE HAD BEEN IN PLACE FOR A YEAR. I was very very angry and frustrated that I'd had to learn this online and that the product didn't give some type of obvious indication to remove it. That for a year he'd had virtually no UVB. She seemed to think he was still getting "some UVB" from this setup and not ZERO. She also told me to skip the pedialyte and to give just water but I've read repeatedly that Pedialyte is very good for them when dehydrated. She told me to get rid of any porous material that couldn't properly be disinfected. This is why I am hesitant to go to vets period. If I make the call to go and spend a big chunk of money that I don't really have and I STILL can't rely on the advice being given, what's the point? There is FAR too much misinformation out there for beardies and I was sadly very uneducated that I was doing things wrong. As far as basking rock, he has a hammock on his cool side. But he is not mentally aware enough to know that anything is in his presence. He responds to touch only. And not favorably. The only time I handle is for a soak and feeding. For his screen, it is not the "fine mesh" screen that I had on his smaller tank. This is a coated metal screen with much wider openings, so while his UVB was still 15 inches above him I am hoping he has gotten some rays through this type of metal screening. Again, thank you so much for your help. I won't euthanize him now that I have gotten some hopeful responses. THANK YOU!!!!!! I am going to get some liquid calcium, mix in with pedialyte and some smashed up beardie bites bc they are very nutritious and he just seems to love the flavor. Is it possible to overload him with calcium at this point? How am I to know how much is too much? Vet told me for his weight about 7 cc's of liquid a day. I'll have to call her and confirm that number
 
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