Fed a medium-sized mouse to my dragon

premammalian · Mar 11, 2017

Three days ago I bought a 17 g mouse to feed to my rosy boa. The snake refused the meal - he shed two days later and i didn't notice it -, so I fed it to my dragon. My dragon hasn't a long time she woke up from brumation, and still she eats small quantities. So I thought, by a sudden large influx of protein, fat, calcium and other nutrients that her metabolism will be started again. The problem was that the mouse wasn't alive, so she couldn't catch and eat it, although I doubt if she would be able to catch it. Neither she knows to eat from tongs, and I didn't want to stress her out too much by moving a large white thing before her head. So I assist-fed it to her, that is, I opened her mouth and placed quickly the prey's head inside. She didn't spit it out, but she seemed to want to eat it. First she smashed its head and forequarters with her powerful jaws, changing sides of her mouth the chew it really bad. Then she started gulping the rest of it. After the half was inside her mouth, she alined it, and started swallowing it. At the end she smashed its hindquarters and tail, and gulped it whole. Then it stayed in the mouth for a few minutes, and I feared she would choke by that. But in a while it translocated to the stomach. The next day she was basking a lot, but still she was active. Now she seems heavy and plump. How much do you think it will take before complete digestion? I haven't fed such a large prey item another time. The only other vertebrate part I have given was a head of the chick, plus the house geckos she was eating from time to time at her previous owner, which I don't do! Will her appetite skyrocket after this meal?

Gormagon · Mar 11, 2017

Rule of thumb..... Never feed anything larger than the space between their eyes. Anything larger can cause choking and/or impaction. Larger foods are harder to digest and, a mouse doesn't hold enough nutritional value to digest it. In other words, it takes more energy to digest it, than is gained off of it. I don't think it was a wise choice to do this. If everything turns out OK, I wouldn't risk doing it again.

premammalian · Mar 11, 2017

I something don't like about that answer. The mouse isn't a dehydrated, months-in-fridge mealworm with just a shell and no nutritional value, it is a whole prey with everything inside. Why should it take such an effort to digest? Also adult dragons can take larger prey than the distance between their eyes. I don't argue that this is an exceptional, abnormal, unnatural prey for the dragon. But will it make her eat much again, or not?

JessPets · Mar 11, 2017

premammalian":2rdw9vev said:
I something don't like about that answer. The mouse isn't a dehydrated, months-in-fridge mealworm with just a shell and no nutritional value, it is a whole prey with everything inside. Why should it take such an effort to digest? Also adult dragons can take larger prey than the distance between their eyes. I don't argue that this is an exceptional, abnormal, unnatural prey for the dragon. But will it make her eat much again, or not?

I completely agree with everything Gormagon said. Something with such high protein and fat matter is much much more than a normal cricket, worm, or roach meal- why WOULDN'T it take longer? Plus, you said she just recently woke up from brumation- her body was shut off for weeks or months, and suddenly you force this giant meal at her. Think about it: even huge animals (like owls for instance) have an extremely hard time digesting bones. There is a HUGE difference between a large meal of crickets and a mouse. a 17g mouse is the same amount as a about 500 small dubias. Please never give such a meal again, it can be harmful.

Taterbug · Mar 11, 2017

While I agree assist feeding the rodent probably wasn't a great idea. I think some logical leaps are being made...

Why would a mouse be nutritionally a net loss compaired to insects? What evidence is there that it would take longer than the typical 25-72hr digestive transit time.

Some animals (snakes, carnivorous lizards) have no issue digesting bones.

While wild dragons would likely take a mouse a large meal would probably have the opposite effect of slowing her appetite down.

JessPets · Mar 11, 2017

Taterbug":tmw29yqy said:
While I agree assist feeding the rodent probably wasn't a great idea. I think some logical leaps are being made...

Why would a mouse be nutritionally a net loss compaired to insects? What evidence is there that it would take longer than the typical 25-72hr digestive transit time.

Some animals (snakes, carnivorous lizards) have no issue digesting bones.

While wild dragons would likely take a mouse a large meal would probably have the opposite effect of slowing her appetite down.

Okay, yes, I am sorry to have made some harsh accusations. But, I still believe I am correct. Yes, in the wild, they might eat rodents- but those are the key words- in the wild. In captivity, when a beardie just came out of a long brumation, it doesn't seem like a good idea to force feed a large prey item that the animal has never had (nor never should). Many people (including vets) have said feeding pinky mice to beardies is bad because they are too big and are hard to digest. And a 17g mouse is a LOT of protein for her to digest. Now, please do not slam me. These are my personal opinions, and you can chose to heed to them or not- I can not, and will not, force it on you.

Taterbug · Mar 11, 2017

@Jesspets I am in agreement with you guys; dragons do fine without rodent prey, I would worry about digestive trouble for an item that large and assist feeding is a touchy subject on a good day. I'm not contesting the advice, merely some of the justifications.

My comment was mostly critical thinking and not criticism at you or gormagon personally. It is all to easy for statements and speculation to wind up out of context eventually. What sounds logical but maybe is not based in proven fact gets repeated (this is a very popular site after all) and we end up with good advice (no rodents) for the wrong reasons (not nutritional).

Again I'm not trying to slam you or be personally critical.

JessPets · Mar 11, 2017

Taterbug":1geq29sd said:
@Jesspets I am in agreement with you guys; dragons do fine without rodent prey, I would worry about digestive trouble for an item that large and assist feeding is a touchy subject on a good day. I'm not contesting the advice, merely some of the justifications.

My comment was mostly critical thinking and not criticism at you or gormagon personally. It is all to easy for statements and speculation to wind up out of context eventually. What sounds logical but maybe is not based in proven fact gets repeated (this is a very popular site after all) and we end up with good advice (no rodents) for the wrong reasons (not nutritional).

Again I'm not trying to slam you or be personally critical.

Okay, I totally understand

I'll try to get some backup research before posting such a comment. Thanks for keeping our forum happy and healthy!

Gormagon · Mar 11, 2017

premammalian":2l4rb011 said:
I something don't like about that answer. The mouse isn't a dehydrated, months-in-fridge mealworm with just a shell and no nutritional value, it is a whole prey with everything inside. Why should it take such an effort to digest? Also adult dragons can take larger prey than the distance between their eyes. I don't argue that this is an exceptional, abnormal, unnatural prey for the dragon. But will it make her eat much again, or not?

I won't even feed pinkies because the benefits are minimal and, the energy expended to digest it. Sorry if you don't like my answer but, I stand by it. Its your dragon...

premammalian · Mar 11, 2017

The dragon started eating meals before the mouse. I didn't give it to her straight up from brumation! She started eating locusts, superworms and dubia roaches, plus some lettuce. Just she wasn't eating the quantities she is used to.

Gormagon · Mar 11, 2017

premammalian":2c5h9uom said:
The dragon started eating meals before the mouse. I didn't give it to her straight up from brumation! She started eating locusts, superworms and dubia roaches, plus some lettuce. Just she wasn't eating the quantities she is used to.

Dragon tend to eat until satisfied, forcing a dragon to eat because you think its not eating what "you" are used to (especially after burmation) can't be healthy. Sorry but, this is my opinion on it. I hope your dragon pulls through this!

Rankins · Mar 12, 2017

Gormagon":291d3i3n said:
Rule of thumb..... Never feed anything larger than the space between their eyes. Anything larger can cause choking and/or impaction. Larger foods are harder to digest and, a mouse doesn't hold enough nutritional value to digest it. In other words, it takes more energy to digest it, than is gained off of it. Ithat's not actually correct...otherwise I would have a bunch of dead reptiles. don't think it was a wise choice to do this. If everything turns out OK, I wouldn't risk doing it again.

Rankins · Mar 12, 2017

There is nothing wrong with this at all. Other than I would have waited until the dragons bowels were more active and picked out a smaller mouse. The dragon would need to be well hydrated also. Gotta flush the kidneys good. I wouldn't do it very often (only after brumation or ill with weight loss) because the dragon could develop gout, a fatty liver, or kidney problems. But a one time feeding of a mouse post brumation aids in restoring any lost fat reserves.
Yes, I know...it's not a common bearded dragon food. Most people will disagree with me

Again, there is probably nothing to worry about...just monitor for a stool to assess GI function.. It should digest/pass just fine and your lizard probably appreciated the steak dinner.
(Edit: forgot...don't force em to eat if they are not hungry or anorexic)

Gormagon · Mar 12, 2017

I respectfully agree and disagree with some of what you are saying.

What I was saying is that their systems are not functioning at full capacity there for making it extremely hard for them to digest a meal that size.
Yes, they might gain a little energy from it but not enough to justify feeding something that size. They will expend a lot of energy during digestion, to gain very little benefit. So, why risk it? There are other foods that are easier on the digestion that will put on fatty weight for instance... Wax worms and super worms.
If they are healthy, there is no need to force them to eat more than they want.

Rankins · Mar 12, 2017

Just some info
http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp
http://www.smianalytical.com/food-nutritional-values/calories-fat-food.php?calories=Babyfood
When dragons are sick and thin, or not eating we give them baby food without hesitation.
Post brumation seems like a good enough time to give them a mouse for extra protien and fats. Just pretend it's baby food.
And no...the dragon will not lose more calories digesting a mouse than it takes in. Doesn't matter how large the meal is. It's impossible...

Fed a medium-sized mouse to my dragon

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