Strange "gulping" (Pneumonia)

[MikeN]

So it looks like it was about 10 days. It was Leo's 8th time today to get the medication, although I highly suspect that most of the first one at the vet's missed his mouth, as the nurse didn't seem too familiar with giving meds to reptiles orally. So, roughly a week. I have not heard from the vet yet, and continue on Baytril. Leo is better today, more active it seems, he got some Acidophiliz for the first time last night, and licked about 0.7ml of Gatorade mixed with water all by himself (got another 2ml in the form of Repta-Aid mix). Seems to also chew on his hand-fed veggies more readily. Walked on the bed a bit, still weak and stumbling though, and pretty much hides in the cool end all the time. I reduced the temps there to around 85, but am concerned with his refusal to bask. Clicking and gulping is about 1/2 of what it was yesterday, but he also blows air out of his nostrils, which sounds clean, no mucus. Another strange behavior is when he curls in almost a circle as if trying to turn 180 degrees on the spot and the side of his head gets almost against his body and he makes a loud clicking noise, louder than any others. Wonder if others with pneumonia here experienced something like that.

Tracie - I am posting some pictures of him taken a few minutes ago, see what you think of his eyes and stress marks (not nearly as dark in the photo as they were earlier today). Disregard his dirty mouth, that's all the food given today

And again, thanks to all of you, you give us hope and the will to fight on.

 

[catUK]

Really hope he pulls through. He looks quite bright in colour which is good- very little stress marks.

 

[AHBD]

Hi Mike...Tracie was right about getting the " cool side" down to about 82. The strange weakness and dizziness could actually be from having been kept too hot for a while, like a bit of heat stroke almost. Please keep the temp. lower, as she said. And a sick lizard will usually not bask, so hopefully once he feels better, he'll get back to it. But again, he may have become over - heated, so he won't want anything to do with a spot that's 110 degrees right now.

 

[MikeN]

Thank you all for the kind words (Hi AHBD). He is better yet today, licked half a syringe of BeautifulDragons' critical care mixed with carrot juice and water, got the rest injected into his mouth. No weird head shaking or shudders, either after drinking or soft foods.

But I still see some mucus in his mouth and he still does some gulping and occasional clicking. It goes like this (same video as a few posts back, but now there is no sideways head shaking): http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm278/bx-me/?action=view&current=MVI_0547.mp4)
He first pulls in some air, then does a series of this "sucking" and finally swallows a couple of times with his mouth closed, sometimes with that moist clicking sound. My suspicion is this is his way to clear his throat. Any of you here ever seen this in your sick animals?

Reason I am asking is I now need to make a serious decision. On the one hand, he has clearly improved. On the other, he is still exhibiting some symptoms. This is our 8th day on Baytril (if you don't count the half a dose at the vet's), and there's still quite a lot of it left. But, I got a call from the vet today that they got that other drug in (called Ceftazedime) and for us to come in for injections every three days. Those would cost us $42.50 each. Not sure how many they plan. So I really wonder if I should just keep Leo on Baytril for a bit longer (according to the vet, the longest it can be given is 48 weeks - sure hope we don't need THAT long, just, say, till I run out of it, which looks like another week or so), or go ahead with the injections.

I am trying to keep his cool end at 82, and it looks like it went that low overnight, but during the day here, I just can't seem to get it lower than 85, that High Desert climate, and his tank at the moment being only a 40 gallon breeder..

 

[Drache613]

Hello Mike,

I would wait to give the Ceftz, it is rather harsh on the kidneys & along with Baytril I don't like the side effects that he could have with doing both of them.
Go ahead & finish out a 12 day Baytril cycle & see how he is doing after that. Sometimes, it takes a few days to a week or so for it all to clear out after the medication is finished. I would say that if he has not completely gotten rid of the symptoms with a few weeks, that either another round of Baytril or a round of Ceftz could be given at that point. Remember that reptiles' systems work slowly so they will usually get well slowly.
He looks good & doesn't appear to be very stressed right now at least in the pictures anyway.
How is he handling the temperatures in his tank now? Is he basking any more frequently?
What wattage is the basking light & you just have a basking light on one end of the tank, correct?


Tracie

 

[MikeN]

Hi Tracie,

This is pretty much what I was thinking. He seems to be felling better by the day, although still weak and not eating by himself. But he eats readily when hand-fed, licks up some liquid mix, and doesn't have any trouble with the rest being given via syringe. He did what looked like he was choking a couple of times in a row, while being fed yesterday (or maybe it was coughing?), and I think I saw a gob of mucus in his mouth after that, which he must've swallowed right away. Whatever it was, there's almost no clicking today anymore, just an occasional sucking/swallowing movement (after given water), and puffy/hissy noises - like he's blowing out air... He still hides in the cooler side, and this is what his setup looks like these days:

The bulb is a 100W Powersun, with a Compact Reptisun added sometimes in the same canopy, which I built myself. And yes, it is strictly only at one end of the tank. Together, they provide barely adequate UVB, and the temp there is really only about 103 now (it got colder here, it mostly went up to 110 in the past week). The cooler side is still usually 85-87, probably due to the size of the tank (40g). But it does go to about 80 overnight.

He attempted to crawl out toward the basking area for the first time today, but got stuck by the log and stayed there. If I put him at the basking spot, he'll stay there for maybe 20 min, and goes back to hide. He is sitting in his favorite spot behind the tree in the photo, but he also often buries himself in the vines at the back.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Mike,

How is he doing today, still improving I hope?
The tank setup looks nice. How long have you been using the Reptisun 10 compact? I would think about changing that out to a tube bulb if you want extra UVB lighting. The compact is extremely harsh on the eyes & a lot of them emit low wavelength UVB which is harmful to them, as well.
Is his appetite improving now also?
How old is the Powersun now?

Tracie

 

[MikeN]

Hi Tracie and all,
Sorry for not posting sooner, I had a crazy week with a dental emergency, car trouble and a job interview 80 miles away. This is Leo's third day off Baytril, after exactly two weeks on it. I am watching him closely, worried that things may get worse now that he's off the meds. He seems more or less fine, I guess it is a very slow improvement... although he still won't eat by himself (could be because I've been practically stuffing him daily?). It is a daily exercise in persistence - he refuses to eat or drink, and I force it into him: start with a syringe of juice/water/Beautifuldragons critical care mix, he may lick up half of it, and I inject the rest into his mouth. Then, collard greens sprinkled with vitamins, rolled up into a small "cigar", with which I pry his mouth open and then he bites and chews readily. Sometimes I manage to squeeze in a couple of canned crickets, some apple or even a raspberry. So my guess is he's getting enough food.. maybe even too much, as the more I do it, the more he'll sit there taking a long time making swallowing movements with his beard after each bite. I am concerned that there might be still something in his throat that makes it hard for him to swallow, and in the worst cases, he sometimes moves his head sideways as if trying to stretch his neck, and I swear I can hear the same clicking!. But that's only after being force-fed. Although, he still does a lot of this swallowing regardless, sometimes with the clicking sounds, and sometimes without. But at least he no longer gasps for air.

He still won't bask either, and If I put him in his basking spot, he stays there only briefly, and goes to the back of the tank.

The Powersun was brand new when all this started, and the compact 10.0 is about a month old. I posted about our lighting issues in the Megaray thread, wondering if our present condition might be related to bad lightling. Leo doesn't seem to mind the compact bulb; if anything, it adds some UV, as the Powersun barely measures 2.2 on my Solarmeter. But I am thinking of buying a tube as well, and see how I could alternate it all. I am about to post in the Megaray thread about some MVB's I found at a local pet shop, most of which I had never heard of: Solar-Brite (100W and 160W), Nature Zone "High Noon", Rep Pro "Spot Lamp" (a 60W MVB!) and an Arcadia D3+, which I know is a good bulb, except they only have the compact version of it. Wonder if anyone knows what all these are.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Sorry you had a hectic week.
How is he doing this evening?
Are you still giving a probiotic now, since he is off of the Baytril he would still benefit from a probiotic to help get his appetite back.
Sometimes it does take awhile for them to completely be recovered, especially if it was a bad case. If he doesn't completely clear up in a week or two, I would consider taking him back in to make sure it has all cleared up.
Try decreasing the amount of food you are hand feeding him, to see if his natural appetite will start to come back then if he isn't so full.
The cigar idea is great, which makes it easy to feed him that way. Sometimes they do store food & fluids in their beards, which looks alarming! Do you see any mucous now in his nose or mouth?
Have you looked in his throat, to see if anything is blocking his throat, etc?
It is highly possible that it could be a lighting issue. Are you using the Solarmeter 6.5 , correct? At 2.2 UVI is not real strong, no, so that could be some of the problem. I would turn off the compact/coil light though as he may be avoiding that one. Have you measured that one also?
I actually have experience with the Solar Brite bulb. The Solar Brite bulb & the Nature Zone bulb are both made by the company of Bulborama. I have & am using a Solar Brite R40 100 watt bulb, that is still doing pretty well. However, the other 2 Solar Brite R30 bulbs were doing good but burned out. They lasted around 6-7 months so not too bad. They are out of the Solar Brites & I have been trying to get some more, but have had bad luck recently. They only have the Nature Zone brand & these bulbs don't seem to put anything out. I am having to send them back & try for the R40 model. The first Solar Brites that I got a year ago were really good & I was happy with them. I can't seem to repeat that though.
The Rep Pro, the last that I heard was an inconsistent light with varying temperatures. The UVB was not very good either for a mercury vapor bulb, less than 40uW/cm2.
The Arcadia compact/coil light is decent, though, I am not a real big fan of compact/coil lights due to the glare that they emit.

Tracie

 

[MikeN]

Hi Tracie,

Today has been strange. It started with me thinking he is worse again, as he looked very lethargic after waking up, and would not stay at his basking spot, and moved very clumsily when getting back into hiding, but then he ate well, licked up most of his repta-aid (with added acidophiliz) by himself, and walked on the bed pretty normally as well. So I followed your advice and turned off the compact bulb, and what do you know - he basked a lot longer this time. And yes, I know that 2.2. from a brand new MVB is pretty bad, hence me using it together with the compact, which measures about 1.5-2.0 as well.

So we went to the pet shop thinking to buy the Solar Brite, but first, I forgot my Solarmeter (which is 6.5, you are correct), and then I looked at the packaging and noticed the bulb looked nothing like the Megaray or the Powersun or any other MVB I've seen, but rather tall and skinny with a complicated coil inside. Is that the one you had? I didn't see any markings indicating whether it was an R40, R30 or the like. But it is definitely an MVB, as the box claims it's "new and improved with much more UVB output". So we left that purchase for later and instead bought the Zilla Slimline Desert 50 UVB T8 Fluorescent Fixture, as I figured the whole assembly with the tube cost the same as just the Reptisun 10.0 alone, so if I don't like the tube (how is it, by the way, does anyone know?), I guess I can always put a Reptisun in it later on.

Now, my main concern right now is how unstable Leo seems. He'll be all live and alert one moment and then look like he's about to die. It stresses me up a lot. I almost decided to take him in for those shots tomorrow, but as it's only been 4 days since Baytril, I am worried about the side effects. I do somehow think he is slightly worse now than when he was on Baytril, as he still gulps, walks clumsily, and even catches air a little today. I gave him a bath for the second time in all these weeks, to help him poop and hydrate him, and even though I kept the water less than one inch deep, it seemed to cause some weird behavior with sideways head shakes and turning on the spot, like a dog catching its tail. Wonder what that is about.. could it be that he remembers his drowning and it freaks him out? He shook his head for a few more times after being taken out, then calmed down and is now sitting quietly and seemingly content. His mouth is slightly open, but he's done that many times before, even years ago.

Anyway, that is my dilemma now. His throat seems ok, at least the vet looked at it when we were there and didn't report anything strange, and he swallows food just fine, it's the liquids that give him trouble. That, and the overall weakness and clumsy movement. I am pretty sure he still has mucus in his mouth though, and wonder if it may still go away by itself or whether at this point he better go get those shots. And if so, would waiting a few days do him any good as far as side effects go, or it may get him sicker again.

 

[Gail]

I can't comment on the MVB but the zilla tube you got a garbage, there have been members on here recently who's dragons have gotten burned retinas from that bulb. Really, the only safe tube is the reptiSUN 10 and the price is pretty good at petmountain.com

 

[Drache613]

Hello Mike,

Thanks Gail for commenting on the Zilla bulb. It got so late last night I didn't get a chance to mention it.
Gail is right, the R-Zilla T-50 tube bulb is very hazardous & will cause some health concerns along with eye issues. Please take the light back for a refund or exchange & order the Reptisun 10 tube bulb from www.petmountain.com

That particular mercury vapor bulb is not what I use, no. It is a new mercury vapor bulb that they have, but I have not tried that one. I prefer the regular ones that look basically like a flood/halogen type of bulb.
How is he doing today, still not looking well?
He may be having some trouble with calcium absorption, too since he has not had very good UVB lighting for awhile. There just are not many good bulbs out there right now.
How do his eyes look, are they bright or sunken in any? He could be dehydrated. Some do not like baths, but if he almost drowned, he could remember that & be scared of water or a bath.
Here is the website so you can go look at the bulbs:
http://www.bulborama.com/store/cart.php?m=search_results&search=&catID=47&x=41&y=10&sort=2&asc=asc&page=2


Tracie

 

[MikeN]

I can't comment on the MVB but the zilla tube you got a garbage, there have been members on here recently who's dragons have gotten burned retinas from that bulb. Really, the only safe tube is the reptiSUN 10 and the price is pretty good at petmountain.com

Thanks so much, Gail, I'll return it asap!

 

[MikeN]

Hi Tracie and all,

Today started pretty well, Leo seems normal and does not gulp nearly as much. His eyes look good too. I took him outside for 30 minutes or so, and he enjoyed the sun. But then, as he was gaping, I noticed something really alarming - there is what looks like a small ball (a bit less than 1/4 inch) of swollen tissue on the right at the back of his mouth, where the teeth end, pretty much right in the middle between his jaws. I cannot tell if it was there before, but I'm guessing it was. I also remember thinking a few days ago that the inside of his right ear looked a bit closer to the surface than I remember, and the skin there looks somewhat darker (kinda reddish brown) and shrunk. I dismissed it thinking it was just dirt, but now wonder if it might be related. What could it be? Abscess? Inner ear infection? And is it related to his pneumonia, or was it pneumonia all along? (I'm guessing it was, since his lungs didn't show up on the x-rays). I called another vet in the area for an appointment tomorrow afternoon, just so I have a second opinion. But right now, I'd really like to know if it sounds dangerous and curable. Thank you all in advance.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Mike,

I certainly hope that there is not an abscess in the ear. Do you have a picture of that?
If he does have a persistent respiratory issue, they may prescribe Fortaz as a stronger antibiotic to help clear up the respiratory issue. Has he eaten anything today?
If his lungs did not show up well on the x-ray, he could have the start of pneumonia. That is great you are going to get a second opinion on this.
You mentioned that his eyes look bright also?

Tracie