Strange "gulping" (Pneumonia)

[MikeN]

Hi Tracie,

He seems pretty much the same today. There might be improvement, but not as drastic as in the past two days. He doesn't gasp for air (although he sits with his mouth half-open a lot, so that may indeed mean a bit too hot..). The temperature in the cooler side is about 89-90, which is lower than the vet told me, but higher than usual. He wouldn't lick Repta-Aid today, so I had to inject it all into his mouth. One thing I noticed is he seems to have most trouble with liquids and softer foods like squash. He'll eat it, but then does the same weird sucking, gulping and head shaking, as if it may be stuck in his throat and he tries to free himself up. I also noticed that his pupils were pretty big at that, as if it might hurt, or he is in a panic. They went back to normal after a while. He doesn't have these problems with solid foods like crickets or collard greens.

His eyes seem bright and alert; I can not decide if they are sunken in... I know I've wondered that in the past too, and always tried to give him extra water. I'd say they are at least as usual. I am pretty sure now that there is mucus in his mouth, which I first confused with saliva. There is just too much moist clicking and gulping going on. Wonder if there is a way to clear it up.

As for falling over, what I meant, is he tries walking, but his legs are too weak, so one of the front legs sometimes collapses and he falls to that side, but gets up right back. He does seem to walk more today, which makes it harder to feed him. I fed him on the bed today, and he walked the entire length of it away from me.

I can't seem to find a way to edit the topic name, I may not have enough privileges for that...
I think I caught the flu myself, wonder if I got it from him.. reptile flu - now that would be something! Hope it's just the stress of the past few days.

 

[maybe]

Hi! I'm so glad to read this post because this is exactly what has been going on with our Coco. Your video looks all too familiar! And our little guy makes these strange noise, likes belching, too.

I've been to the vet three times and they say they have no idea what's up, think it may be gastrointestinal. They didn't think it was respiratory, even after I told them about this gaping/gulping/burping thing he had been doing. He was treated for coccidia and then stopped eating on his own not long after. It's been a long few weeks of trying to get him back to the healthy guy we thought he was.

We finally put him on some Baytril today, because nothing else has worked. I've been force feeding him with critical care and Reptaid and soy yogurt. Please let me know how yours does - maybe the Baytril is really the answer.

Good luck!

 

[MikeN]

Hi maybe,

I didn't want to reply right away to let Tracie respond, as she would know a lot better. Anyway, I am glad my post is helping someone, but please note that we have experienced what looked like burping a while back, when Leo had coccidia, so please do not rely just on our present situation! Best thing for you at this time would be to find a GOOD knowledgeable vet, where exactly are you? Unfortunately, I am only familiar with LA, and the Bay Area in NorCal to some degree. I really really hope Baytril helps Coco, as a lot of what you describe sounds like Leo's story - lighting problems, not eating well, hand-feeding, etc. Just do not give up, I still spend an hour or so a day hand-feeding him and giving him water. He was actually starting to eat by himself after a long break right before this happened! And the now-known problems with MVB's played a huge part in that.

Here's a video I took today that shows his reaction to water... I couldn't capture the weirdest part, when he closes his eyes and sorta "shudders" at the end, but the rest is representative. The good part is at least he got to drink an extra half a syringe while filming this.

Link: http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm278/bx-me/?action=view&current=MVI_0547.mp4

Oh, a quick tip for you: I've been feeding Leo collard greens rolled up in a small tube.. like maybe 5mm thick - I just gently pry his mouth with it and force it in, and he has no choice but to bite on it and then he chews and swallows readily. Have them sprinkled with vitamins or calcium for better effect. Same with small slices of apple, squash, etc. Do not rely on just liquid stuff like yogurt - with some persistence you can even squeeze in canned crickets dusted with calcium. Just rub it on his nose, wait till he opens his mouth a little and force it in. Can't speak for everyone, but it's been mine and Leo's experience for over a year now.

 

[maybe]

Over a year!!!! Oh no! Ugh, I can't stand the thought of him not feeling well for that long. So sad.

Thank you for the tips. I can try to force feed him solids/greens today too. He finally started taking water from a dropper, so that helps. I'll have to go back and read the history of your little guy's story - don't know how long he was sick or what living conditions he had. We've only had ours since Christmas, but he grew like mad, ate like mad and seemed very healthy. It's been a bummer to watch him decline, but I'm trying just about everything and am not going to give up on it.

As for the vet, I'm in Orange County CA. I was referred to our vet by a friend's sister who is a vet herself and went to vet school with this guy at UC Davis. He and his partner specialize in reptiles and birds, so I think I have a good vet... but who knows.

Please update me at some future point about progress with the meds! Thanks!

Oh, yeah - and are you injecting those meds yourself?? I'm having to do that and I hate it. It's awful to have to hurt him.

 

[MikeN]

You know, Coco's story does sound like Leo's a lot. He grew up very fast, ate a ton and was extremely active as a baby, then, when he was about 6-7 months old, he started having smelly poos, so we knew we had to address it. But the first vet we got may have played a big part in his later problems, so having a good vet is crucial. The first one just said "oh, it's internal parasites, I can just see that", never even did the proper testing, and gave Leo some deworming meds, and told us to give him some more in two weeks. It looked like it may helped a little, but it later turned out to be coccidia. He was still having a good appetite while through this. Then, we apparently ran into the same problems with MVB's as so many others, at which point he really developed a lot of problems, had to undergo three coccidia treatments a few months apart, but it eventually cleared up. But that's when his appetite declined and he would no longer eat veggies by himself or drink from his dish. So I started doing the hand feeding. He would still eat superworms, and that's how it stayed for a few more months. Finally, his replacement Megaray (which apparently wasn't that great itself) died this January (or February - I don't remember), we were about to move, and I picked up a SolarGlo at Petco. At the same time he started having some bloody-looking stuff in his poo, so another local vet prescribed Baytril, and apparently a rather high dose. The pink stuff went away, but he stopped eating for good. Nothing but hand-feeding since then until about three weeks ago, when I got myself a Solarmeter 6.5 and a temp gun and discovered just how low his UVB was. I have not found a good replacement yet, but combining a compact Repisun 10.0 with a Powersun seemed to help, and he finally started eating superworms again. I thought we were on the way to recovery, but then this! I don't really know what caused it - his temps being lower than needed for an extended period, the lack of UVB, me trying to feed him less to get him lose some weight (he is still a bit overweight)... or all of that combined.

When you say inject - do you mean, you actually inject Coco with a needle? I only give Baytril orally from a small syringe, and it doesn't seem to hurt Leo, although of course he doesn't enjoy it either. The last vet even told me that it's best to avoid injecting reptiles if possible, as they are prone to abscess. Keep us posted on his progress please.

We are in Lancaster at the time, and don't have much of a choice, but if I were in OC, I'd drive to Long Beach animal hospital, I have nothing but praise for them, and Dr Ridgeway in particular, who is a reptile fanatic himself. We also used Dr. Baccaro, and she was great too.

 

[maybe]

Thanks for the background. Sounds like a long haul.

To be honest, I am starting to think that it is just too hard to keep these desert animals as pets. I mean we did everything right, according to what the books and this site say. I take such good care of this lizard, it's ridiculous. The vet and the breeder have both gone over our husbandry and said it all looks good. If it continues this way with the force feedings etc., I feel like maybe we'll have to euthanize him. I mean, what kind of quality of life do they have if they don't feel well enough to eat? I just don't know anymore.

And yes, I have to inject him with needles. The vet said that since he wasn't eating and oral antibiotics upset their stomachs further, injection is best. ?? And believe me it's not easy and I feel so badly for the guy. I feel like everyday now it's about taking him out to punish him with feedings and shots, when he used to sit with us and snuggle with my daughter and go to his window to watch us when we were in his room.

I mean, are there people here who have had healthy dragons for a long lifetime? If Coco doesn't live through this, we'll all be so sad.

 

[MikeN]

I really wouldn't be so pessimistic. While it's true that caring for any pet may be a bit too much to take for some, it is still usually our own oversight that causes most issues. If it's not genetic, then it's likely the environment. Just look - I used to think I was on top of things, and it turned out that Leo was getting little to no UVB for a long time. Just a couple of days under still-not-so-good-but-better-than-it-was lighting and he started to eat by himself. And whose fault was that? Certainly not Leo's. Yes, he hasn't eaten veggies by himself for a long time, but many of them don't... I was hand-feeding them only because Dr Ridgeway told me he needed to lose some weight. Otherwise he was just fine eating his supers. And coccidia - well, they usually get it from one another as babies, being housed together. A few days on medication and a good steamer from Bed Bath and Beyond (learned the hard way) is all it takes. And our latest issue... well, he nearly drowned in late March (I had a thread about that), add to that the non-existent UVB, lower than normal temps and less food and you have a recipe for disaster.

Again, we've just been unlucky to experience the #1 common problem that so many others have been experiencing for over a year now - bad lighting.
Having said that, how is yours? Do you know exactly what it measures? If nothing else, you can just take Coco outside for a while, we're in California after all Just make sure he doesn't overheat, it's probably best later in the afternoon. And how is he doing after a few days on Baytril? I am also somewhat concerned about the needles, if you can force-feed Coco any food, then it really shouldn't hurt him to give it orally.

Leo is clearly better today, he only licked a little bit by himself today, but he also didn't have anywhere near as bad a reaction to water being injected into his mouth as even yesterday. No head shaking, no strange shudders, just a bit of sucking and gulping. I can now clearly see a lot of mucus in his mouth, so he must be trying to clear it up by doing that. He walked on the bed a lot, did a couple of head bobs and even attempted getting down on the floor, which I wouldn't let him in this condition, as he's still too weak and might hurt himself.

 

[maybe]

You're right, I am feeling pessimistic.

I have used a Zoo Med ReptiHalogen basking bulb and a Reptisun 10. This month makes six months on the UV tube, so I will be switching it out. Unless one of the bulbs is faulty, I think he's had good lights. It's been hard though to get the humidity right. Still working on that one - that may have been the problem? Although there are plenty of people who don't live in the desert and their dragons don't have health problems from that - even the vet said she didn't think it was humidity related.

And it has been nowhere near warm enough yet to take him outside. California it may be, but we live by the coast and it's too chilly here for him. When it gets warmer, and if he feels better, I'll be taking him out this summer.

The shots of Baytril have to be injected I think - It's a different dosage/mixture that isn't for oral use. He's only had it once, as it's given every three days. At this point I'm considering letting the breeder take him back from us for a while - she has offered to help rehabilitate him since she's more used to injections and force feedings and all this stuff. But I know a move would add to his stress right now, so I'm on the fence about that one. But doing that would prevent my kids from having to watch him slowly die, if that's what is happening.

I'm keeping his cage really clean and warm, making slurries, giving him Reptaid and medicine, feeding him silkworms, giving him water daily, checking temps obsessively, not allowing the kids to handle him, feeding him soy yogurt for the probiotics. He's been to the vet twice and I have been back one more time and spent another 20 minutes talking to her.

So I hear what you're saying about his problem being caused by my care for him - I just wish I knew what it was that we did. I feel like I could not have prepared to care for this pet any better than I did, but we still have problems. I guess that's my issue with the whole thing - it's not like it was an impulse purchase or that we were ignorant about care. I found a responsible breeder and talked to her for months before buying this guy, then chose a healthy dragon, didn't go to Petco.

This is EXACTLY what I didn't want to happen after the loss of the family cat last year. Just too sad for all of us. So yeah, I'm sad and frustrated.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Mike,

How is your boy doing today, are his eyes looking any better?
The Baytril will dry him out a lot, so extra baths will be fine, unless you can get any oral fluids into him. You can try diluting some pedialyte or some gatorade to help replace his electrolytes for him.
Does he seem to be doing better & feeling better now?
He is not head shaking now? If he head bobbed a couple of times then he must be starting to feel a little better.

****Maybe, please start a thread just for you, so I can review your case better, it would help a lot! Thanks. Or, you can PM me here & we can go over your setup, feedings, meds, etc.

Thanks.

Tracie

 

[catUK]

Hi my 14 month old beardie has just got over pnemonia. I noticed something was wrong when i heard the clicking noises (also no mucus or any other symptoms). My lighting, set up, temps etc were all fine so me and the vet didn't know how she got it- the vet said it could just be 'one of those things' as its a bacterial infection on the lungs. She stayed at the vets for 4 nights and the vet gave her baytril injections and baths twice a day with a product called reptoboost. The vet said she was bright and alert but could not tell me if she would make it. However i took her home and her appetite picked up. I took her back for her last injection and the vet was really pleased with her recovery. I also used soy yoghurt which seemed to help and gave her water with a syringe. She is back to her normal self now- no clicking noises, more active, good appetite. Just thought i'd share as when i heard 'pnemonia' i was worried sick and thought i'd lose her. Yours may also make a good recovery, the baytril injections do wonders. Please don't give up hope, i know its hard as i was distraught when i thought i'd lose mine but she recovered quick and yours may too with the medication

 

[maybe]

Thank you CatUK! I needed a happy ending story right now. Maybe things will work out for us too!

 

[catUK]

Thank you CatUK! I needed a happy ending story right now. Maybe things will work out for us too!

If mine got through her illness then yours and MikeN's can too. i keep my fingers crossed for both your beardies

 

[MikeN]

Hi maybe, I didn't mean to offend you, just concerned about Coco and wanted to show that Leo's problems are likely my own fault, and not to give up. It does sound like you are doing more for Coco than I did for Leo in the past few months. Is Coco feeling any better on Baytril?

I too am concerned with stress, as Leo now has stress marks and is overall darker than usual. I don't see any improvement today, in fact, head shakes and shudders after being given Repta-Aid and water are back. It is very hot here today, and we have to run A/C. I wonder if it may be affecting him, although I have the vent near his tank shut and the tank covered halfway with a blanket. He keeps hiding in the colder side, which is still in the higher 80's. To further aggravate things, I spilled some of his medicine when giving it to him, so I added another drop, and now have no idea if he ended up with more or less than needed.

Tracie - I think his eyes are ok, I was just wondering if two 1ml syringes a day are enough for him in this condition. I gave him three yesterday, just in case, but now he is reacting worse again, and I'm afraid to cause him extra stress.

Thanks CatUK, how long did it take her to fully recover? And how did you know - did you have to do the blood tests and x-rays again?

 

[Drache613]

Hello Mike,

Well, you can do 3-5mls per day if he will take it, that is.
Are you sure that he is not overheating? If he is not able to cool down at all, even overnight, he will become aggitated & overstressed.
If he is still hiding in his cave, he is probably not feeling well & it is too hot in his tank, overall.
The cooler end needs to come down to no higher than 82 or so.
The Baytril will dehydrate him, & it can make him feel bad, as well. Do you have any pictures of him?

Tracie

 

[catUK]

Thanks CatUK, how long did it take her to fully recover? And how did you know - did you have to do the blood tests and x-rays again?

I don't know how long she had the illness. I noticed it on the saturday night, took her to the vets on the sunday and they kept her in until the thursday then i took her home. I went back the following tues and he listened to her chest with the stethoscope and gave her her final injection. He was happy enough through listening (he's an exotic specialist vet) and how she was holding herself i.e. upright, alert etc. Since then she's seemed much better in herself. However, may be he should have done another x-ray but as he had a great reputation with exotics i didn't question his judgement :?