Reanimating Hornworms (new pics - Pupae!)

[fresnowitte]

Barbara, I was only kinda expecting 150-200 this morning, so imagine my surprise!!! Oh my, we'll have a heck of a group for round #3!

And some obese beardies in no time. :lol:

 

[blondie098]

Oh no, we're in contact with our local herp vet, he manages an emergency exotics hospital, too (he's on our magic list here at bd.org, I'm so lucky!) -- he knows who needs the extra calcium, so I already have a phone call into his office!!! it would be a great solution to have someone local. And it could put some medical care on retainer for us if we choose that route (barter is great).

My li'l piggies are only getting them in moderation, Crash has to eat the smaller ones anyway because he's such a lazy chewer -- Xena on the other hand can handle them over 3+ inches, I think that monster could chew a car into a small block of metal (like Wall-E) ... she mangles her food, crunch-crunch-crunch lick-lick-crunch-lick ... gotta get it all!

We've been feeding horns as treats for the last couple weeks and neither gained more than 5-7 grams, so I think they've pretty well levelled out... they are each 1-1/4+ pounds of dragon, tho -- quite a fright for people not expecting it! :twisted:

 

[fresnowitte]

Barter system with a vet sounds like the way to go. :wink:
Females seem to be like that they eat like they are starving all of the time affraid they might miss something. :shock: None of my males will even chase their food...not even Bender talk about lazy... :roll:
It must be a male thang! :lol:

 

[blondie098]

today's harvest -- 374 eggs (but I haven't done my double check of the plant yet!) --

oh my, I'm going to be so in trouble when these hatch!!! Am waiting to hear from our local herp vets -- not sure if they'll want eggs only or cups w/food -- either way is fine with me! Rob at greatlakes' food is proven for me, its good stuff, I think he makes his own... the horns love it... and grow beautiful and healthy!

 

[fresnowitte]

Oh my lady...your are going to go broke in buying hornworm chow. :lol:
Speaking of which I'd better order some more myself. :mrgreen:

More than likely the vet will want the cups with chow...it would make for lots less work for them.

 

[blondie098]

Today's harvest ... 498 eggs ... I posted a thread in For Sale if anyone has chow and wants eggs!!! This is not a full-time operation, we're mainly keeping this going to have our own supply... but I've only got 2 mouths to feed, so a note for any other breeders, I am not trying to become anyone's competition! I just hate for viable eggs to go to waste.

 

[gulfbrzdawn]

Dawn....I just want to know where you get all the time and energy to do all the things you do? Let's see you grow moths, worms, larvae and probably a few other things we have not been told about! :roll: You make blankies and beds for beardies, you are a wilton cake buttercream froster...decorator...eater...pie thrower(with quite an arm) :lol: . Let's see you run some kind of computer geek squad business or something from your home. I'm sure that's only the tip of the iceberg...God only knows what else you do! :roll: On top of all that you still have time to play on BD.ORG... :shock: What gives?!

 

[blondie098]

haa haa -- let's just say that I am enjoying life? My daughter started playing with bugs as soon as she could walk, so I have to be flexible! I'll post more details in P&S!

 

[blondie098]

These are some of the hornworms from our 6-1 & 6-2 eggs ... they take 3-5 days for eggs to hatch, so these guys are getting pretty big ... Xena enjoys watching me sort them!

For the first week, we raise them en masse in cups. When they are about 1/2 inch long and nice bright green, we start making the shoebox habitats. We use the dollar-store shoeboxes, so we have multiples going... 4/4 hardware cloth makes nice little tables... we just trim them, sand down any sharp edges, and fold to make little "tables". (if you use galvanized, make sure you wash the table and thoroughly dry it!)

Some start growing faster than others, so we check them a few times per day to make sure the food supply is still good. Then after about a week we start inter-mingling (basically sort by size).

Sorry, didn't realize that one worm was making a poo until I went to upload the pics!

 

[blondie098]

Hey everyone, about a year ago, someone posted a recipe for hornworm chow that could be used for emergencies, does anyone know if it worked? I didn't see any posts to update on yes or no?

Here's the old thread:
http://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=666697

Here is the recipe that was posted:
Here is a homemade recipe from UW-Madison.

A Homemade Recipe for Manduca Diet

We have developed a diet composed of ingredients that are readily available in a large supermarket. Diet preparation requires only a kitchen blender and a microwave oven. The finished diet, having the consistency of tofu, can be easily sliced into any shape or size and the quality of the diet can be modified by adding or subtracting various chemical components.

1 cup (100 g) of non-toasted wheat germ (Bobs Red Mill, Milwaukie, OR)
1/3 cup (25 g) of nonfat dry milk (Sanalac, Fullerton, CA)
4 tablespoons of agar (generic)
1 teaspoon pure raw linseed oil (nonboiled, Sunnyside Corp., Wheeling IL)
1/2 tablespoon nutritional flake yeast (generic)
1 vitamin C tablet (1000 mg) (generic)
2 vitamin B tablets (generic)
2 multivitamin tablets (generic)
1 tablespoon of table sugar (generic)
2 1/2 cups water

1. Place vitamin tablets in blender and reduce to a powder. To this powder, add the wheat germ, powdered milk, and sugar and blend until the dry components are well-mixed.
2. Remove the dry mix from the blender and add 2.5 cups of boiling water. While mixing at low speed, add the agar. Be careful to replace the lid on the blender before turning it on. Blend for one minute and then add the dry mix and continue to mix.
3. Add the linseed oil and increase blender speed. You may need to manually blend the diet while the blender is running. The diet gets rather viscous at this point.
4. After blending for about 5 minutes, add the nutritional yeast flakes and continue blending for another minute. Components in the yeast are heat labile, thus, yeast is added as late as possible.
5. Once the diet is thoroughly mixed, pour it into a plastic tray that has a sealable airtight lid. The diet will solidify and remain usable for about 7 to 10 days if kept refrigerated.

 

[invictusrules]

I've seen this recipe before, but there are so many unknowns, I haven't beem tempted to invest in the ingredients. Like:

2 vitamin B tablets (generic)
2 multivitamin tablets (generic)

Vitamin B-what? There are lots of different B-vitamins. And there's such a HUGE range of strengths! I'd be really nervous about overdosing the critters - maybe pick a really low dose or just make sure the multivitamin has all the B-vitamins. Hmmmmm.

All the ingredients look really nutritious. Almost something I'd eat. (almost) That's one thing I really like about hornworms - their food smells so much better than silkworm chow. With silkies, I can clear the whole house of human co-habitants within minutes of cooking the chow! :wink:

 

[fresnowitte]

That's great information that you posted Dawn. I wish I'd had it before the eggs I got from you. I order the powdered hornworm chow from mulberry farms and it looks just like silkworm chow. The hornworms that I have from the same date as yours are barely 1 inch in length not 3ish inches. I had decided not to use their chow the next time I was going to order from greatlakes but I think I'll give you recipe a try instead.

The B vitamin is a complex right?

 

[blondie098]

I don't know, I'm just going to have to test it. I just ran to a specialty store across town, it's an all-organic large local place called Mustard Seed Market (in Montrose / Akron, Ohio) -- I dropped $30 on the wheat germ, agar, linseed oil & raw brewers yeast. Gotta go to Aldi and get some powdered milk, and GNC for the vitamins. All told, the agar is the most expensive part of the food, so I think that's why the chow is so pricey. Not that the pure wheat germ is cheap, either, the recipe uses a lot. If this works, I'll search hard & long for a cheaper source.

I searched for over 2 hours, comparing notes on recipes for the chow. I wouldn't call myself a gourmet cook, but I fare very well in the kitchen. Only found 3 recipes total, and one included things that only research labs would be able to get (like strepto-something antibiotic). That was in the recipe from Purdue University. This Wisconsin U one sounds much more manageable, just still not cheap.

If it fails, I'll just keep ordering my food from greatlakes. Rob is great, and I am in no way trying to compete with him. He's a great guy, and has been wonderfully patient & helpful answering all my weird questions thus far! (thanks Rob!) But if he ever quits making the chow, I'm not sure what to do.

I am now getting ready to spend at least another hour or more trying to locate agar cheaper. I am curious, to all those great cooks out there: since agar is seaweed w/great thickening properties... could I instead mix a 1:1 ratio of unsweetened gelatin with kelp powder? Then maybe substitute measure-4-measure? that would probably cut my cost in half on the agar!

Just a thought, we use kelp powder, so I always have that in the house. (ok, no smartalec comments, I hate the smell of it, but remember all those allergies I have! I have to get my vegetarian energy source somewhere! It is actually very good sprinkled on homemade french fries or mac-n-cheese!)

 

[blondie098]

just for reference, this is the recipe I got from Purdue University -- there are some very hard-2-get ingredients, tho, I'm not sure if the average Joe can get them:

Components:

DI water 2L (DI = De-Ionized)
agar 40 grams
Dry-Pack
streptomycin sulfate 0.4 grams
ascorbic acid 8 grams
10% formalin 40 mL
linseed oil 8 mL
Vitamin Solution 20mL

Preparation of Agar Solution:

***For those who prefer to prepare agar on hot plate:
1. Boil I .5L water, mix remaining (500 mL) water and agar together.
2. Add agar, stir at boiling until dissolved.

***For those who prefer to prepare agar in autoclave:
1. Mix 2L water and 40 grams of agar in 4000 mL Erlenmeyer flask.
2. Autoclave for 20 minutes.

Preparation of Artificial Diet:
1. Add Dry-Pack to agar solution and mix (or blend).
2. Allow to cool to 50-60 degrees Celcius, remix (or blend)
3. Add remaining ingredients (4-8), mix (or blend).
4. Allow to cool to 40-50 degrees C, remix (or blend).
5. Pour into trays to solidify.
6. Cover trays with aluminum foil, refrigerate for later use.

Dry-Pack Ingredients --
wheat germ 160 grams
Casein 72 grams
sucrose 64 grams
salt mixture W 24 grams
Brewer's yeast 32 grams
cholesterol 7 grams
sorbic acid 4grams
methyl p-hydroxybenzoate 2 grams

Vitamin Solution Ingredients --
nicotinic acid 450 mg
riboflavin 225 mg
thiamine 105 mg
pyridoxine 105 mg
folic acid 105 mg
biotin 9 mg
DDI water 450mL (DDI = Double Deionized)

Oh, My -- where would you get 1/2 this stuff?!?!?

 

[fresnowitte]

That looks like the recipe that someone linked me to awhile back.