Dominance or Autogamy?

[schnookys]

Hello, I have two female Bearded Dragons. They are almost 2 1/2 years old, purchased and housed together since hatchlings. This past summer they have been displaying some very interesting behavior! They always get along in their cage, basking together, eating, etc. I live in MN, so when it's nice enough out they get to go outside, they also visit schools and daycares. They are very tame, healthy, stimulated, etc. They also get to run free around the house when I can keep an eye on them. They usually walk lazily around tasting everything and climbing, basking in the sun comming in the window, chilling on the cat bed, etc.

This summer as soon as I let them out they race around the living room head bobbing. They see each other across the room, their beards instantly get black, they chase after eachother headbobbing. They race up to eachother, continuing the head bobs, sometimes circling eachother, then my more submissive female bites the back of the neck of the other one! That's not all! She then mounts on top, and after some shuffling about appears to be mating with her tail wrapped under the other's. After this "mating" frenzy she drops off to the ground, frozen, looking totally dead! After a few seconds she just gets up and goes about her business.

Since these behaviors have begun both my girls appear to have gained weight in the lower half of their abdomen. From photos I have seen they do look gravid.

I am 99% certain I have 2 females! I have had breeders show me the different sexes, I have looked in books, online, and compared, everytime comming back to the conclusion that I have two females!

Just to be safe I have a dish tub filled with wet sand, about 4 inches deep. I already have an incubator (I raise Corn snakes).

So, I am wondering if anyone can tell me what's going on? Is this a dominance thing, and they just happen to be putting on weight? Or is it possible (which I know it is in some other herps) that Bearded Dragons are able to reproduce with out a male (autogamy)? Or is it something else completly? Any help would be wonderful!

 

[jeitzen]

Umm, sounds like one of your girls is not a girl. If one mounted the other and put there vents together and fell over done, that sounds like mating too me. Are you positive you have two females?

Can you post pics of them?

 

[LJean]

I just don't know. Sounds like mating behavior to me. And you are totally sure both are females?
http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/sexing/

 

[kirby]

it IS possible you have a hermaphrodite. temperatures and fluctuation can cause biological males to develop as females. its possible he looks entirely female but isnt totally all there or right. this doesnt effect every egg in the clutch, in captive incubation, fluctuation and set 'female' temps usually only effects between 50-90% of the clutch in changing gender.

its common for females to bob, beard and occasionally mount in an act of dominance. but wrapping the tail round, proper mounting and death feigning afterwards is entirely a male 'love languid' effect.

it would be best for these animals, if they were separated. simply seeing each other, and bobbing etc. causes them stress.

 

[schnookys]

I have looked at the page here for sexing. One has the typical single buldge of a female, and the other has nothing at all, no lumps/bumps etc. I also have a younger male, confirmed by the breeder, and housed completly away from the girls, so I have that to compare as well. That is why I say I am 99% certain I have two females, or maybe a he/she.

I will get some pics asap to see if that helps. I got some good shots of them "mating," and I'll take some photos of their tails to post.

I have picked them up to look when they were "mating", and (ok kind of gross but, the one on top has her vent opened up, but I have never seen a hemi penis, nor have I been able to pop one out.

As far as the stress factor, they do not display any of these behaviors when inside their cage together. Only when I let them out. It's like they're buddies in the cage, and dominant/territorial when they have a larger area to protect?

I'm hoping to breed them in the future, so it's not a bad thing if I do have a pair, I'd just like to know for sure what is going on.

Thanks to all who answered, and I'll get some pics soon.

 

[kirby]

whether they are male or female, they shouldnt be housed together after this behaivior, the reasont hey have done it out in the open is because its new territory, and thus.. something worth fighting for.

as for you trying to sex them, bumps or hemipenal bulges arent the best way, nor is popping his hemipenes... thats awfully dangerous. this should be done by a proffesional or experienced keeper on SKINKS, if you pop a dragons, you run the risk of causing a prolaps. vent size is a better judgement, gently pull back the cloacal opening (not too much presure!) males have a wider opening then females.

if one of them is a male, come spring he will over breed her, and cause her stress. this will lead to weak adults, absorbing less from foods and lowering apetite. you could lead to MBD after she absorbs 4 clutches worth of 20 eggs worth of calcium from her bones. if you dont care about this, you shouldnt breed or keep them in the first place IMO. its your job to keep them safe, healthy and happy.

 

[LJean]

LOL.. so the one is hiding it's sex from you. They can try to make you crazy.

Good luck with them whoever they are.