Female being territorial?

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Female being territorial?

Postby IzzyLou24 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:38 am

We got two girls, both about a year old, about 2 weeks ago.
They were cohabiting but we separated them, and today the much smaller one, Aurora, started head bobbing, black bearding and really puffing up when she spotted her big brother (5yo Spike,who was in his vivarium)
I know this is standard male territorial behaviour, however the store we got them from assured us that they were both female.
It all adds up really; they were both very well behaved when cohabiting (They loved to cuddle up), Aurora is much smaller than her sister and is the one showing these behaviours.
However, when we checked we couldn't see any male sex organs.
If anyone has any idea what's going on we would really appreciate it!!
Thanks,
Izzy, Saphira and Aurora xxx
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:51 am

It does happen, I had a female who was very much a blackbearder and headbanger. Very bossy little thing. Yes females can be territorial . My bossyboots was also smaller.



Are you sure both are females though.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby KarrieRee » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:53 am

It is best to keep them apart---- I would post pics of the 3 w/ tails in the air and see if some of us on here can help w/ the sexing- take pics form the rear of course w/ tails up so we can see the vent
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:00 am

KarrieRee wrote:It is best to keep them apart---- I would post pics of the 3 w/ tails in the air and see if some of us on here can help w/ the sexing- take pics form the rear of course w/ tails up so we can see the vent
Karrie


Yep , asking for trouble if this pair are rehoused together.

Not all F + F pairs are harmonious , eventually the bigger attacks the smaller.
Also , unless reared together from very young hatchlings , best to not keep dragons together if there is large size difference.
Only reason why my Caesar and Cleo are good together so far ( 7 months old) is Caesar doesn't know Cleo is half his size , I provide two basking spots, two hides and they are never fed together. ( I don't expect this harmonious coexistence to last forever and will be separating the pair soon as my garden and house improvements are done ).
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
kingofnobbys
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby IzzyLou24 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:29 am

Thank you all :)

I didn't plan on getting both of them. Only found out there was a second girl in the vivarium when I was picking my girl up, but I just could not leave her behind! Ordered a new vivarium as soon as I got home but they were perfectly happy together, all cuddled up.
[Click image to enlarge]

They're all separated now, seem to be doing ok. Aurora Is in the top vivarium, and isn't going through too much relocation stress, she loves looking out the window :)
Kept Saphira in the lower one as she was very stressed after she moved.
[Click image to enlarge]


Will get some pics of Aurora tomorrow, my working hours mean that I'm not home while their lights are on until tomorrow afternoon :(

If Aurora is actually a male then we're going to rename her Artura!!

Thanks again :)
Izzy, Saphira and Aurora xx
IzzyLou24
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:35 am

Another point, what's the gravelly stuff I can see in the picture.

Not a good or safe substrate for bearded dragons , high impaction risk. I'd get rid of that stuff and replace with nonparticulate substate.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
kingofnobbys
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:35 am

double post
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
kingofnobbys
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Posts: 10768
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: Female being territorial?

Postby KarrieRee » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:51 am

Also the tanks are beautiful but the UVB's need reflectors --- they are mounted nn the back wall and the dragons cant get under them so the UVB is not effective --- I would get them to where they can sit directly under them and get a reflector on them ---
Karrie
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby IzzyLou24 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:28 am

kingofnobbys wrote:Another point, what's the gravelly stuff I can see in the picture.

Not a good or safe substrate for bearded dragons , high impaction risk. I'd get rid of that stuff and replace with nonparticulate substate.


It's corn cob, very soft, foam like substrate. Not caused any problems with my partner's 6yo beardie who's been on it for 5 years but I'm planning on swapping out half the vivarium for tiles (the side with the food). Saphira loves to hide under her log and dig out the substrate to create a wall for hiding so I don't want to take that away from her :)
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby IzzyLou24 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:31 am

KarrieRee wrote:Also the tanks are beautiful but the UVB's need reflectors --- they are mounted nn the back wall and the dragons cant get under them so the UVB is not effective --- I would get them to where they can sit directly under them and get a reflector on them ---
Karrie


Thanks for the advice! Will get some reflectors ASAP and have a look where I can move the tubes to :) I try to put their climbing things on the back wall under the UVB, still kitting out Saphira's for the back wall though, work in progress!
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby claudiusx » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:01 am

Hi there, the tubes are ok at the back but putting a reflector on them will definitely help :)

The important thing is the distance from bulb to basking surface. In a lot of my tanks it's near the back, but I also have most of my basking sites near the back.

-Brandon
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:49 pm

IzzyLou24 wrote:
kingofnobbys wrote:Another point, what's the gravelly stuff I can see in the picture.

Not a good or safe substrate for bearded dragons , high impaction risk. I'd get rid of that stuff and replace with nonparticulate substate.


It's corn cob, very soft, foam like substrate. Not caused any problems with my partner's 6yo beardie who's been on it for 5 years but I'm planning on swapping out half the vivarium for tiles (the side with the food). Saphira loves to hide under her log and dig out the substrate to create a wall for hiding so I don't want to take that away from her :)


Corn cob bedding is highly absorbant = a perfect media for bacteria, viruses and mold, and will be also make it harder to control the relative humidity in the tank. For those reasons alone I'd be ditching it , might be for rodents and mammals and birds , but not for arid zone reptiles to live on.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
kingofnobbys
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:51 pm

Regarding position of UVB tube :
Image

A good polished metallic (parabolic profile) reflector or hood with polished metallic reflector built-in will essentially double the UVA & UVB fluxes at any position under the reflector , no UV is wasted .

Is better to have the UV source directly overtop the basking spot, than along a back wall's top corner.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
kingofnobbys
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Posts: 10768
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: Female being territorial?

Postby IzzyLou24 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:33 pm

kingofnobbys wrote:
IzzyLou24 wrote:
kingofnobbys wrote:Another point, what's the gravelly stuff I can see in the picture.

Not a good or safe substrate for bearded dragons , high impaction risk. I'd get rid of that stuff and replace with nonparticulate substate.


It's corn cob, very soft, foam like substrate. Not caused any problems with my partner's 6yo beardie who's been on it for 5 years but I'm planning on swapping out half the vivarium for tiles (the side with the food). Saphira loves to hide under her log and dig out the substrate to create a wall for hiding so I don't want to take that away from her :)


Corn cob bedding is highly absorbant = a perfect media for bacteria, viruses and mold, and will be also make it harder to control the relative humidity in the tank. For those reasons alone I'd be ditching it , might be for rodents and mammals and birds , but not for arid zone reptiles to live on.


So what loose substrate would you recommend?

Thank you for the advice and diagrams 😊
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Re: Female being territorial?

Postby IzzyLou24 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:58 pm

Sorry all, I had some issues uploading this image for you guys to have a look; this is what we can see.

[Click image to enlarge]


I'm 95% sure Aurora is actually male; Saphira was waving at her from the vivarium while Aurora was helping me with their salads, and Aurora black bearded again, bobbed her head and was puffed right up trying to jump to Saphira's vivarium. They both got really, really stressed out when we wouldn't let them be near each other, I ended up covering Saphira's viv so they couldn't see each other (at which point Saphira started running into the glass 🤦‍♀️)

TIA
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