Seperation

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Seperation

Postby boneboy » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:33 pm

Hey! I have two 7-month-old bearded dragon siblings that I've had for about a month now and I've never owned a young bearded dragon before - only upwards of a year and 1/2. One of them is an avid glass surfer ( any idea how to stop this?)

My issue is that I'm well aware that beardies are solitary critters. A fair few people on my servers have actually started trying to bully me and brush me off pretty harshly for it, but the two youngsters are in the same cage. My previous dragons were in the same cage for the seven years that I had them and one of them had been given to us because she was constantly fighting the other beardies at her first home - but we never had a problem, they never even gaped at each other.

Aj and Druid, the babies, are currently the same deal. They're siblings, and never move past mild dominant behaviour; Druid steals the UV light spots more than anything, but they don't fight. I'm not sure if it'll stay the same as they get older but is it really necessary to separate them completely?

Any help would be really appreciated!
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Re: Seperation

Postby claudiusx » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:05 pm

If your question is whether or not we think you should separate them, I'm pretty confident that 99% of the responses you get here will be to separate them.

Unless im misreading what you're asking for in your post.

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Re: Seperation

Postby KarrieRee » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:32 am

Yes please separate them!!! One will become dominant and the other will get sick from the dominance of the other one--- example taking over the basking area food etc............ they are a territorial creature and do not do good together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As far as glass surfing it could be the tank is too small or stress from being in the same tank w/ the other one-------------- or it could be both- especially if that tank is a small one!! Please separate them ASAP--- w/ that being said can you post pics of the tank and lighting you have please-- thanks
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Re: Seperation

Postby CooperDragon » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:08 am

I think it really depends on the dragons. Most of the time, it's best to give them their own spaces, but not always. Keep a close eye on them and their behavior. Look for one dominating basking spots and food. Look for one dragon losing weight or acting lethargic. Signs of aggression are also a consideration but not the only one. I suggest having a good second enclosure prepared to go in case they do need to be separated.
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Re: Seperation

Postby Aaradimian » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:15 am

It might be worth putting a temporary divider in the existing tank like a piece of cardboard or similar, making sure that both sides still get adequate light, temp, and UV, to see if there are behavioral changes in the one that surfs all the time. If so, it's a good bet that the behavior is due to the current co-habitation situation. I have read posts on this site about 2 apparently friendly beardies suddenly going at one another after years of peaceful co-habitation, so my advice would be to separate as others have already mentioned.

Also, it might be a good idea to assess your current husbandry situation against some of the reference material on this site to reduce the change that the surfing is being caused by an environmental issue like a too-hot basking area, inadequate or incorrect lighting, lack of a hide, etc. Over time, I've had to make adjustments to what I've been doing as I learn more about beardies, and it never hurts to double check things. I recently bought a UV meter and had to make changes to the position of one of mine's UV because the bulb wasn't putting out strong enough light based on where he usually sits during the day, so it's a constant learning process in my opinion.
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Re: Seperation

Postby kingofnobbys » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:40 am

My approach is to play it safe if there is any indication that one is not having it's needs met to thrive or at the very first sign of any aggressive body language . Then that's the time to separate.

It's OK to separate your dragons from the getgo if you have the housing and space.

My first pair stayed a couple for their first 6 months , then my boy started nipping at my girl , as soon I saw this going on (may have territorial pecking order business or may have courting) , so at 8 months old (I separated the pair, Puff went into a new 90L rearing tub , Rex kept the old one).
Puff wasn't happy about the change at first but Rex had an immediate growth rate increase as soon as she discovered she didn't have to wait for Puff to eat his fill or get out of his way.

My second pair were separated from the get go, despite the breeder telling me they would be fine together. Toothless my boy was a real live wire and Peppa my girl was a snugglejunky and an foodjunky and grew to become a big girl 25" long and 800g.

My current pair are from the same breeder ( said they came from the same clutch ) Cleopatra and Caesar , ( I think different parents to Peppa and Toothless ) they are housed together in a 120L rearing tub , and are currently between 4months and 5months old and so far they are doing nicely , mainly because I never feed the two together and I've provided multiple basking spot and two hides.

Being retired I spend a lot of time with my lizards and so I'm in a position to spot changes in behavior.
I have a second 120L rearing tub prepared that I can bring into service in minutes if I need to separate Cleopatra and Caesar ( all I need to is bring the spare rearing tub up from the garage , plug the lights into the two powerboards and install the dragon ) , but don't anticipate this becoming necessary for another few months (when it's spring).
I'm hoping to have my new double bay enclosure built before this proves necessary.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Seperation

Postby Ellentomologist » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:29 am

Hiya,

I feel you posted this knowing what the response and answer would be. In short, you really should separate your beardies.

First of all you mention that one of your dragons is a glass surfer - in my experience, Guacamole has only gone "Glass Surfing" when there is something wrong with his setup. When he started doing as a younger in his 20 gallon long, he stopped doing it when I put him in his 40 gallon setup - the tank was too small. When he started surfing again after I moved, he stopped once I was able to unpack all his hides and give him better than a minimal set up. When I changed his lighting, he did it again briefly before I got his temperatures right. Now he only glass surfs after he's pooped and before I clean it up, and I don't blame him, because yuk. While I understand that some beardies just DO THAT, to me glass surfing is always a sign of unhappiness/stress.

You also mention that they do display mild dominant behavior and that Druid hogs the UV. This is likely to be detrimental to AJs health in the long run.

On the topic of cohabiting in general... For bearded dragons, it is not ideal. That said, I have seen it done meh and very well on a couple of occasions that I will list here.

The meh version is at a reptile rescue I volunteer at every now and again when they are having big events and need spare hands on deck. If you're wondering why a reptile rescue has sub-optimal care for bearded dragons - one of the most common lizards - I feel I should add that they specialize in alligators and crocodile. The other reptiles they've acquired have been semi-accidental, and usually only when the reptiles had literally nowhere else to go. They have, last I checked, 5 beardies, 2 male and 3 female that are all kept in one huge 4 foot by 8 foot, open top enclosure. The walls of the enclosure are about 4 foot, and the beardies have a ton of platforms and vertical space. They also have three basking platforms and are right next to the check-in/check-out counter. They don't fight, as far as I have ever seen, however they do breed and the center simply freezes the resulting eggs. I have talked to the owner about this not being good for the females health, and last I knew they were looking into making a second enclosure similar to the first to keep the dragons divided by sex.

The well done co-housing was done by a breeder. All of his enclosures were 2 foot wide and 18 inches tall; male enclosures were 4 feet long and female enclosures 6 feet long. Male enclosures held one animal and were set up standard with a basking area on one end, etc. Female enclosures had the basking spot in the middle instead, and were large enough that without extreme aggression no one dragon could actually "hog" the entire thing. He kept his females in pairs, and if any single female proved to be too aggressive or failed to thrive in a co-housed setup for whatever reason, she was given a male-type setup. The female enclosures essentially had two cool ends with two food bowls, double the number of hides, etc, so that it would be very very difficult for one dragon to displace the other from the necessities. His animals were absolutely stunning, never so much as a toe missing except for one male who's tail got caught in a door and was missing about two inches as a result. Since his dragons were his livelihood, they were pretty much under constant observation.

So, if you are really considering cohousing these dragons permanently, there are several factors to consider.

First of all, what are the genders of your dragons? I would never co-house two males or a male and a female, but I might press my luck with two equally sized and docile females. Two males are invariably going to fight, even if given a massive set up - while the alligator sanctuary has two males in the same enclosure, I cannot stress enough how big of a mistake this is. A male and a female - even siblings - are invariably going to mate. This is bad for the health of the female if she is over bred, and obviously being full siblings genetic disorders would be at a premium. No one likes incest! If they are both female, there is a slight change you /might/ be able to get away with co housing your dragons.

The next thing to consider is the temperament of your dragons. Do they honestly "get along"? From what you say, it doesn't seem like they really do. One seems stressed (glass surfing), one hogs the UV (druid), and you say that they as juveniles display "mild forms of aggression" - these will only get worse as they mature. Because of this, I highly recommend you separate them.

Finally, consider the additional cost of cohousing two dragons. In order to do it right, you're going to need a massive, probably custom enclosure and almost everything you'd need for two enclosures anyway. All this, with no grantee that it will actually work out. You could since a few hundred dollars into making a good setup only to have it not work - the dragons start fighting anyway - and you need to put them in separate enclosures ultimately regardless.

In essence, what I am saying is that almost all people and their bearded dragons are going to be happier and healthier in separate enclosures. Can you co-house them? Sometimes, rarely, yes, but doing so successfully is unlikely to save you any money or space and puts your dragons at greater risk. I wouldn't do it unless you have a large number of dragons that you are breeding at your livelihood, checking in on them daily and monitoring their health like a hawk (Or if you're like kingofnobbys and are in a position where you can monitor them like a breeder would, haha!).

As a last note, one problem with co-housing besides aggression/competition is illness. If one dragon is sick, it's going to be harder to detect because the healthy dragon will still eat, poop, etc, and you might not catch on to the ill dragon being ill until it is in a significantly worse state. Additionally, being in the same enclosure, the sick dragon is very likely to infect the healthy dragon if this were to occur.

Hope this helps!
-Ellen
About me: Lab Manager in CDB studying for graduate school. Keep many invertebrates, reptiles, and amphibians, but only one BD named Guacamole. HUGE DnD and tabletop RPG nerd. Sorry if I post the same info right after someone else does, I tend to open many tabs and not refresh.
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Re: Seperation

Postby boneboy » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:29 am

@KarrieRee I'll post a photo right after this as I'm on my laptop right now
@CooperDragon I still have my old lizard tank around and plenty of materials, but because of my exams I just haven't had the time to properly assess it and get it set up for them.

@Aaradamian I have two seperate basking spots under one light right now, a hide, and three different places to climb up on; My lights and everything were set up by someone from the reptile shop in town and I have a temp gauge (automatically turns off heat if it goes past 32)

@Ellentomologist @kingofnobbys I really appreciate the long response, all the info was really really helpful
I did kind of know the answer, I was just hoping for reasons and information - which I got, and I'm super grateful for.

I'll try and set up the extra tank in the next week or so, once my assignments are all in and my mum is back home. Thank you guys so much for all your help, I really really appreciate it and I'm sure the beardies would too!2
Last edited by boneboy on Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seperation

Postby boneboy » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:36 am

Image
https://imgur.com/a/gAXi0Ml
It's currently higher than it is wide, which isn't ideal right now, but I was planning them to move them both into the longer tank ( i think it's about 6 inches longer both ways, same height) but by the looks of it he'll be staying in this one and she'll move into the other.

I already have an extra heat lamp, timers and UV meters, but there's a fair bit I need to buy before I can seperate them. I want tot ake care of them best I can but I had to work with what I had - a friend of mine 'accidentally' bred her two and her mum wanted to get the babies euthanised instead of selling so y'all can bet i jumped back into beardie care without thinking, my bad

Seeing as the cage will be hosting just one form now on, is there anything I should change (aside from taking out the stone?)
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Re: Seperation

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:04 am

boneboy wrote:@KarrieRee I'll post a photo right after this as I'm on my laptop right now
@CooperDragon I still have my old lizard tank around and plenty of materials, but because of my exams I just haven't had the time to properly assess it and get it set up for them.

@Aaradamian I have two seperate basking spots under one light right now, a hide, and three different places to climb up on; My lights and everything were set up by someone from the reptile shop in town and I have a temp gauge (automatically turns off heat if it goes past 32)

>>> 32 degC (?) , where is the probe for the thermostat that controls the basking globe ?
If that's the basking spot temperature , it's too cool, the dragons need to have a basking spot AIR temperature near and not exceeding 40 degC. And a warm zone about 35 degC. Too cold and they will not be able to digest or metabolise their food , vitamins and dietary calcium.

Clearly the person in the pet shop was totally clueless if that's an example of the advise they gave you.




@Ellentomologist @kingofnobbys I really appreciate the long response, all the info was really really helpful
I did kind of know the answer, I was just hoping for reasons and information - which I got, and I'm super grateful for.

I'll try and set up the extra tank in the next week or so, once my assignments are all in and my mum is back home. Thank you guys so much for all your help, I really really appreciate it and I'm sure the beardies would too!2
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Seperation

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:09 am

boneboy wrote:Image
https://imgur.com/a/gAXi0Ml

<<< what's that red coloured gravelly stuff ?
It needs to be removed , especially if it's CalciSand or VitaSand .
Very dangerous to have hatchlings on any sort of particulate substrate that can be accidently ingested stuck to the food or with the live insects.
Paper toweling or loosely laid ceramic wall or floor tiles are the best option (no glue , no grout) , when a tile is soiled it's lifted out , taken outside and hosed down and then returned nice and clean.


It's currently higher than it is wide, which isn't ideal right now, but I was planning them to move them both into the longer tank ( i think it's about 6 inches longer both ways, same height) but by the looks of it he'll be staying in this one and she'll move into the other.

I already have an extra heat lamp, timers and UV meters, but there's a fair bit I need to buy before I can seperate them. I want tot ake care of them best I can but I had to work with what I had - a friend of mine 'accidentally' bred her two and her mum wanted to get the babies euthanised instead of selling so y'all can bet i jumped back into beardie care without thinking, my bad

Seeing as the cage will be hosting just one form now on, is there anything I should change (aside from taking out the stone?)
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Seperation

Postby KarrieRee » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:21 am

The coil UVB's are no good-------I would replace them w/ these
Which UVB light should I use?
The best UVB light is a ReptiSun 10.0 fluorescent tube HO (Or Arcardia 12% in the UK). Compact or coil bulbs do not emit the proper amount of UVB light for a bearded dragon, and should not be used. Other brands, such as the Zilla Desert Series and ReptiGlo have been known to cause eye problems and other health issues with bearded dragons, and should be avoided. The reason that some UVB lights (Zilla, ReptiGlo, coils/compacts, ect.) are considered dangerous is because the wavelength of UVB that they emit is shorter and more intense than the wavelength of the "safe" lights (ReptiSun, Arcadia). UVB lights should be replaced every 6 months. The T5’s are a strong bulb and only need to be replaced once a year – the T 8 every 6 months--- where as the T 8 are not as strong—they need to be placed inside the tank the T 5 10.0 bulb approx 10-11 inches from basking spot – the T 8 approx 8-10 inches from basking spot—the cover needs to be off the bulb for full effect of the UVB rays-- those need to be replaced ASAP- other wise your gonna have issues w/ them not digesting their food properly-- the substrate can be replaced w/ a textured non adhesive shelf liner - its cheap and easy to clean w/ vinegar/ water in a spray bottle and the insects cannot get underneath--- your gonna have a lot of money invested in the 2 of them because of all the husbandry issues that need to be fixed to keep them healthy ----------- I would get a 10 gallon tank and start ordering dubia roaches as they are gonna be your best bet for feeders-- they are easy to keep and last longer than crickets-- they can be fed carrots squash apples strawberries etc...........they dont like greens much or at least the ones I have gotten did not eat them--
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Re: Seperation

Postby boneboy » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:47 pm

Your help has been brilliant, you guys. My mum and I never sought a second opinion but from now on I think i'll be taking whatever is said at the store with a grain of salt. I worked two double shifts this weekend to help pay for everything so I can get t by the end of the week.

So from what I understand so far, these are what I have to do (making a list to keep me on track)
1.) Separate the two and set up the extra tank
2.) replace substrate with paper towel + ceramic wall/floor tiles, or any textured non-adhesive shelf liner (any other options? the girl i got them from had hers on partial substrate and short fake grass?
3.) switch out the UVB - Reptisun 10.0 fluoro tube HO ( not coil, NOT zilla/reptiglo) T5-T-8 ; they've currently got the 13w ExoTerra 10.0 compact, is the same brand worth finding? I'm in Australia, so

I changed the temp from 32 to 35- but my meter won't go any higher than that and I have to set the old one back up again anyway. I asked my dad to keep an eye on them while i was at work and so far, apparently, there's been no glass surfing at all.

Is there anything is really important ( or even just an extra thought) that I should know about? Finger's crossed I'll be able to get it all or almost all in one go.
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Re: Seperation

Postby KarrieRee » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:55 pm

Do not get the Reptisun COIL--- You want the tube or an Arcadia 12 or 14% bulb--- they are a tube as well
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Re: Seperation

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:17 pm

boneboy wrote:Your help has been brilliant, you guys. My mum and I never sought a second opinion but from now on I think i'll be taking whatever is said at the store with a grain of salt. I worked two double shifts this weekend to help pay for everything so I can get t by the end of the week.

So from what I understand so far, these are what I have to do (making a list to keep me on track)
1.) Separate the two and set up the extra tank
2.) replace substrate with paper towel + ceramic wall/floor tiles, or any textured non-adhesive shelf liner (any other options? the girl i got them from had hers on partial substrate and short fake grass?
<<< a piece of textured lino (like you likely have on the floor in the kitchen) is good and very cheap and is also durable , but be aware escaped insects are likely to hide under it.
But is it is impervious so poos will just wipe off , as will food .


3.) switch out the UVB - Reptisun 10.0 fluoro tube HO ( not coil, NOT zilla/reptiglo) T5-T-8 ; they've currently got the 13w ExoTerra 10.0 compact, is the same brand worth finding? I'm in Australia, so
<<<< I use 26W ExoTerra UVB200 compacts in my 120L ALLSET brand converted (rearing) tub, this is mounted UNDER THE LID in an ExoTerra NANO HOOD , my dragons can basking as close as 20 cm from the compact. This works extremely well and 26W UVB200 compacts are an excellent product and perfectly suitable for smaller rearing tanks and rearing tubs (80L to 150L capacity).
The linear t5ho 10% to 12% UVB tubes from Zoo Med and Arcadia Reptile are excellent and start at about 24W and 0.6m long.

LONG AND SHORT of it is a 13W compact WILL NEVER provide sufficient UVB & UVA for a bearded dragon unless the dragon can bask really close to it ( under 7 cm from the globe ).


ONLY BRANDS of UV globes (compacts / MVBs) and tubes (T8 and T5HO) that are good are Zoo Med , Exo Terra and Arcadia Reptile . The rest are cheap n nasty Chinese knockoffs made cheap with buggerall QC and using second rate quartz and substandard phosphors , essentially you pay for what you get, if you cheap out , expect a bad product that will produce a very bad UV spectrum.

I changed the temp from 32 to 35- but my meter won't go any higher than that and I have to set the old one back up again anyway. I asked my dad to keep an eye on them while i was at work and so far, apparently, there's been no glass surfing at all.

I STRONGLY URGE you to invest in a handful of these : https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LCD-Digital ... 0CmDg5pnSQ , they are very accurate and cheap enough that you can have several in the tank monitoring different temperatures.
If your thermometer probe is part of a thermostat setup, and the temperature mentioned (35 degC) is the WARM ZONE AIR TEMPERATURE, as opposed to the BASKING SPOT AIR TEMPERATURE, it's fine at 35 degC.
You still need to check the basking spot air temperature with another thermometer and check the warm zone temperature as well with separate thermometer.


Is there anything is really important ( or even just an extra thought) that I should know about? Finger's crossed I'll be able to get it all or almost all in one go.


Since you are in Australia :
good places to buy reptile stuff by mail order / online are :
https://www.amazingamazon.com.au/reptil ... -sale.html
http://www.livefoods.com.au/accessories ... ies?page=6
https://www.petbarn.com.au/reptile
you'll find most the gear you need , and livefood to order (in bulk online) too. They all accept PayPal.
Mostly if order on Sunday , you will have the parcel delivered before Thursday.

A visit to Bunnings is worthwhile , they still carry Philips par38 incandescent flood globes (which make great basking globes) and they have ALLSET storage tubs .
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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