Kidney failure? Need help.

Hey so I'm new here, sorry to make this an introductory post, but my beardie is not in good shape. Vet has waffled but they are the only one in my area, so I'm coming to you folks for help. I'm sorry if this is long-winded, I want to be thorough because I'm emotionally exhausted & at the end of my rope.

Dovah is almost six years old. I took her in from folks that had to re-home her this April. They previously had her in sand & said she's never had any problems, but I switched her to stone tiling for easier cleanup & to avoid possible impaction. Diet previous to all this starting consisted of; superworms or phoenix worms for protein (about 4 supers or 8 phoenix daily, only one or the other, & typically only after she'd eaten some of her greens). Dusted those with calci/D3. Greens typically switched between collared greens (her fave), Escarole, & Endive. I did mistakenly feed her Kale for a week or two before I found out that was not good for them. Have since avoided. Veggies she got; bell peppers, various squashes, & sometimes carrots that were softened up for her. All cut up to bite size. For a treat maybe once or twice a month, she'd get strawberries or bananas. Baths were 1-2 times a week typically, she did lay two clutches of eggs & did not seem to have issues with this. She has UVB lighting, basking spot is typically around 110-115F, warm side sits around 95F, cool side is about 80F. Overnight tepms are around 65-70F. 40 gallon breeder.

Come this September (around the 12th or so) I noticed she was eating much less. I figured okay, could be brumination, right? She was hiding in her cool hide a lot more. Some days she wouldn't come out on her own, but I could coax her out with her bugs & then she might pick at her greens. By October 6th, she had eaten so infrequently she was at a 399g weight & I took her to the vet. Vet called back after a few days & said it could be an RI. She did have a cough at the time, but even now, she still has it. She sent me Emeraide & a syringe for sustenance & Enrofloxacin for the RI.

Did that for the required three weeks & then attempted weaning off of Emeraide. Her weight was looking great, she was back up to 424g which was what she was at before this mess started. But Dovah still wasn't eating solids. Went back to vet, went back on Emeraide (3-4 feedings of 3ml a day), did more bloodwork & x-rays. Vet says come mid-November that it could be kidney failure, but that RIs sometimes need two doses of Enrofloxacin to get knocked off & that she just didn't know. She then also told me that when she saw her October 6th, she didn't expect her to live a month. So, now demoralized, we do another round of antibiotics.

(She is not a specialist, but she's about the only one I have in my area that works with herps, unfortunately. She was communicating with specialists, she said, idk if this is pertinent but throwing it out there.)

At this point, however, she has taken all of one bite of her solid foods, willingly, since October. It's been Emeraide since then. A few weeks ago she had some issues vomiting, I thought she just drank too much water, but I don't know anymore. Yesterday, she tried to poop, but she cannot. She is bloated. It's just coming out in small amounts at a time. & it's slowly hitting me that is probably is kidney failure. I feel lost & scared.

My husband & I have already spent over 1k on her vet visits & we are having troubles pulling together for another round of testing; what I was hoping for here was just any knowledge you all might have. If it is kidney failure, I know she's suffering. I don't want her to be. If I have to put her down I will, even if it's hard to stomach that. But do you folks know if there is any possibility that it isn't? Is there some hope for Dovah or do I have to help to ease her passing?

Hi there, I'm really sorry to read this, hopefully Dovah can be helped. Is she still coughing, if so how often ? I will say that antibiotics are hard on the kidneys and that 6 weeks worth may be a big part of the problem. Your basking hot spot should also be lowered to about 100.

Is she active at all, does she have a black beard ? When you give her the Emeraide add extra water, she needs it now and I'd cut out the antibiotics.

Is there any way you can post a video of her breathing ? If not, at least some good body shots to show how she looks in her tank ?

Thanks so much for the reply. She does still cough, it is less now though. Between 3-6 times a day now, down from much more (I'm sorry I can't give an exact number, it's been hell trying to keep track of everything). The vet actually recommended upping the basking spot to that... Ugh. She does sit in it a lot even at that temperature, if that gives any info. I'll lower it.

She is active; I've seen a black beard on her all of once, when we were outside in the summer & she thought a plane was an eagle or something. Poor girl. But she never goes black. & I've been adding extra liquid to the Emeraide, absolutely, good to know that's a good step. I'm just concerned even more with that now, because all the pooping she's trying to do (it's up to 5 times a day yesterday, she's tried three times today now) are all so watery. She's losing it fast.

I don't have a reliable way to take video at this time, I can try to borrow something, but her breathing doesn't seem to different to previous. However, again, it's hard to remember previous now, so...

Her posture has improved since all this began though; she's much less droopy now, & she does actually come out of her hides to bask on her own, though I'm not sure if that was the end of brumination or the antibiotics working.

Here are pictures; I'm sorry for the imgur links, it's been a long time since using this formatting of forum & I cannot recall how to embed images.

https://imgur.com/eJ70w2B
https://imgur.com/LumdFDC

She looks very good and alert there. If she's not blackbearding then the discomfort may not be as bad as you think. Her pooing several times a day can very likely be attributed to the antibiotics and a very soft diet. I think she might hang on, she doesn't seem to be in pain there.

Oh man, I really hope so... Thank you so much, this is definitely the better thing to be hearing.

The only trouble now is going to be getting her back onto solid foods. I'd read that some folks were using stage one baby foods to transition; I'm not sure if I should keep her on the Emeraide or what. & Is that coughing a little bit still okay?

I think the Emeraide is better nutrition. Can you post a shot of the ingredients ?

Unfortunately, the Rx does not list the ingredients. But it's 50/50 of omnivore & carnivore mixes. 1/4th tsp of each + 4/3rds tsp of water is the mix it calls for, I've upped the water a little bit. There's really no indication of what's in there, though.

Hello, welcome, and I'm sorry you're dealing with her being sick and an incompetent vet, this is unfortunately very, very common...

So you say they did blood work already? Do you have the results? What other diagnostic tests have they already run, x-rays, ultrasound, etc.? Do you have a digital copy of any imaging tests that they ran? If they ran x-rays, ultrasounds, etc. and you don't have a copy of them, you need to call the vet and get them to email you a copy of everything they did, all test results, etc. You can then upload the imaging photos into the "User Image Uploader" in the top toolbar.

If they did a routine blood panel, it should have included both a kidney panel and a liver function panel, which would definitely confirm or rule-out kidney damage, which is what is confusing me as to why the vet wasn't sure it was kidney failure if she did blood work...

Either way, stop all antibiotics, 6 weeks of Baytril will CAUSE kidney failure in a dragon, and it's the last thing that vet should have done if she suspected any kidney trouble was prescribe oral, broad-spectrum antibiotics that weren't helping her cough over and over again, that probably made her only much, much worse.

Did this vet mention doing Nebulizer treatments at home? With either F10SC or with a liquid antibiotic, like Tylan 50 (Tylosin)? You can do Nebulizer treatments at home and make a Nebulizer out of a plastic tube with a lid, some tubing, or even just buy a human Nebulizer or even just a human diffuser/Vaporizer like you would buy at Walmart for $20. Daily Nebulizer treatments usually cure upper respiratory infections in beardies within a week, an they don't strain their kidneys at all, so that's the way the vet should have gone had she suspected any bit of kidney damage, even after the first round of Baytril she should have stopped all oral antibiotics for the URI (they weren't working anyway) because they are counterproductive and can kill a beardie with kidney trouble.

At least they gave you the Emerald, it's good stuff, that and the Oxbow Critical Care are the way to go while they are sick like this and not eating on their own. She may not be eating simply due to the URI, if she's still coughing on a daily basis then she's still sick, Baytril wasn't the correct antibiotic I'm guessing (did she do a culture/swab of her nostrils/throat/mouth and send it out to try to determine what bacteria/fungi is causing the URI?), and I'm going to assume that any Kidney problems that developed were caused by the extended antibiotics given orally for way too long...that just sucks all the way around...but we can help you out.

If you have a copy of the blood work results please post them, or just type them in if you don't have a digital copy or a scanner. A routine blood panel will show both her kidney and liver function, any vet can read blood work results. Either way, I'd be getting some unflavored Pedialyte or the generic equivalent and using it instead of water to mix up the Emerald and anything else you give her, and if she drinks out of a bowl or you give her extra hydration throughout the day with an oral syringe or an eyedropper, etc. I'd switch over to unflavored Pedialyte all the way around to give her the extra hydration and electrolytes to flush out her kidneys. Try to offer her the Pedialyte several times throughout the day, and if you're lucky enough that she drinks out of a bowl then replace the water with the unflavored Pedialyte. This will give her kidney support.

And again, stop all antibiotics for now. Baytril would have gotten rid of the URI by now if it was effective against whatever microbe is causing it, but it's obviously not effective against whatever is causing the URI, and if she is in kidney failure then she shouldn't be taking any more antibiotics, antiparasitics, etc. by mouth.

I think that trying the Nebulizer treatments is the way to go, I'm experienced in doing this with a beardie and with parrots, I have used Tylan 50 several times, it's a prescription antibiotic that is specifically given for URI's in all animals, birds, reptiles, etc. and it's available at any Tractor Supply store without a prescription. It's very easy to Nebulize them inside a plastic tub with a lid on it if you have a liquid diffuser or a vaporizer to put inside with them. You just Nebulize the Tylan 50 (or the F10SC reptile disinfectant) inside the vaporizer, diluting it a bit with either sterile or distilled water and then putting the solution into the vaporizer, putting the vaporizer inside the plastic tub with the dragon, putting the lid on (I create a few vent holes too) and you basically fog them with the antibiotic vapor for 15-20 minutes. Do this once daily for a week and you'll usually see marked improvement...

Hello,

I agree, unless they found an infection of some type, there really isn't any reason for her to
be on any antibiotics, especially a prolonged regime of them. They are very hard on the
system & would just expedite kidney failure if that is what is going on.
Please post a copy of your blood test results, or I can send you my email & you can send them
to me & I'll take a look at them. I would like to see what the uric acid levels are. Her eyes
look bright, elevated & not sunken in, either.
On the x-rays, did they not see any eggs, etc?
It is still a possibility of brumation. Did they say that she had a respiratory infection, was it
confirmed? As EllenD suggested, nebulization is a great way to help stubborn respiratory issues
because it penetrates more deeply than just oral meds do.
How is she doing today?

Tracie

You mentioned multiple small poos per day , what colour are they / what do they look like ?

What tests did the vet do to diagnose renal failure ? or did the vet diagnose renal desease ? ( renal failure and renal are different )

This might clarify the matter for you and give some guidance for treatment. http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/acute-and-chronic-renal-disease-reptiles-proceedings?id=&pageID=1&sk=&date=

Regarding renal desease : https://en.wikivet.net/Lizard_and_Snake_Renal_Disease, there are some good articles PDFs) cited.

Hello,

How is your girl doing today, any improvements?
Keep us posted on her, I hope she starts to feel better soon.


Tracie