throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

This forum is for urgent health concerns, where your beardie seems very ill and you need immediate help!

throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby cassdenny » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:19 pm

PLEASE HELP ASAP!!!
First time bearded dragon owner. Had him for 3 months
yesterday I got my bearded dragon (Denny) 20 medium crickets and 100 meal worms. Usually I put the crickets in and he hunts them in his enclosure for awhile.I put 6 worms in his food dish so he could eat them later if he wanted because he has been eating collard greens for awhile. after he had finished hunting most of the crickets I took him out and gave him a bath to hopefully get his bowels goin,no movement yet so i put him back into his enclosure and let him bask and relax for the rest of the day and did his usual light routine after dark.His basking spot is usually 105 to 110 during the day and it stays about 85 to 90 in there at night. (F)
Today I go to clean out his enclosure and give him some collard greens and he had pooped and there's pieces of meal worms and a full cricket and some already chewed up collard greens so I'm guessing he threw all this up. I cleaned it all up,put collard greens and 3 meal worms in his dish and he doesn't want them.His beard is very black and has his head lower than he normally does.I gave him a warm bath for 5 minutes and usually he hates getting a bath and runs around and tries to jump out or climb out but this time he just sat there his head almost touching the water so I held his head up and slowly pet him and dried him off while he stayed on my chest.
He's 6 months old and is usually very hyper and wants to explore and run around when I take him out but today he was very lethargic.
He didn't throw up anything foreign and he has paper towels for his substrate just because I didn't want him to eat a loose substrate because he is still young. So he didn't eat substrate.
He doesn't have free range of anywhere but his enclosure because,once again,he's young and still small.
I keep a shallow water dish in there and never see him drink out of it he usually likes to drink in the bath.and he was drinking water in his bath yesterday.
He isn't dragging his legs,he ran a just a little bit earlier but just wants to bask but that's where he normally is.His under-belly is soft like usual
I thought maybe impaction but he didn't eat anything weird and he's had normal bowel movements.
maybe he aspirated water? he threw up a little water
Or maybe he ate too much too fast?
maybe his stomach got used to eating all greens for awhile so to get a bunch a bugs made his stomach hurt?
could his basking side be too hot?
I'm not sure what's going on but that"s why I'm here! Please help me decode whats going on and how I can help my little Denny!!
cassdenny
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:41 pm

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby AHBD » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:58 pm

Hi there, it may be that his crickets were possibly too big, that he ate too many or that he aspirated water. How big were the crickets exactly ? Did you say he's not used to that many ? If so, that may have been the problem. And had his temp. changed or this is what it's always been ? Hot temps. aren't usually a problem because healthy beardies know how to move away. Can you post pics of him + his set up, and can you list the exact type + brand of lights you have ? Here's how to post pics :


https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them
AHBD
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 18168
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:20 am

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby cassdenny » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:58 pm

AHBD wrote:Hi there, it may be that his crickets were possibly too big, that he ate too many or that he aspirated water. How big were the crickets exactly ? Did you say he's not used to that many ? If so, that may have been the problem. And had his temp. changed or this is what it's always been ? Hot temps. aren't usually a problem because healthy beardies know how to move away. Can you post pics of him + his set up, and can you list the exact type + brand of lights you have ? Here's how to post pics :


https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them




He's doing a little bit better now, barely any black on his beard. They were medium size crickets he's gotten that size once before. his temp didnt change, He has a Zoo Med 75w heat lamp. and a Zoo Med reptisun 10.0 UVB. heres the set up.The only thing that changed is turning his enclosure on its side.
[Click image to enlarge]

[Click image to enlarge]
cassdenny
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:41 pm

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby VenusAndSaturn » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:27 pm

Ive heard tube lights are usually a better uvb source than coil/compacted bulbs, and i'm pretty sure hes getting no uvb since the uvb is on glass and not screen, i'd say tip it back onto its regular place so he can get uvb, the glass filters it out entirely i believe. the inside portion of the setup looks good... and probably the reason hes throwing up is maybe you gave him too many or at least a larger size than hes used to.
VenusAndSaturn
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:13 am

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby cassdenny » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:32 pm

VenusAndSaturn wrote:Ive heard tube lights are usually a better uvb source than coil/compacted bulbs, and i'm pretty sure hes getting no uvb since the uvb is on glass and not screen, i'd say tip it back onto its regular place so he can get uvb, the glass filters it out entirely i believe. the inside portion of the setup looks good... and probably the reason hes throwing up is maybe you gave him too many or at least a larger size than hes used to.


okay thank you so much I'll tip it back over, now I know for next time I get him crickets that are smaller.
cassdenny
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:41 pm

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:54 pm

VenusAndSaturn wrote:Ive heard tube lights are usually a better uvb source than coil/compacted bulbs, and i'm pretty sure hes getting no uvb since the uvb is on glass and not screen, i'd say tip it back onto its regular place so he can get uvb, the glass filters it out entirely i believe. the inside portion of the setup looks good... and probably the reason hes throwing up is maybe you gave him too many or at least a larger size than hes used to.


Zero UV is getting through the glass .

If it was on top a mesh lid , as much as 40% of the UV will be blocked.

The compact UVB , irrespective of the wattage and UVB rating is TOO far away anyway to be any benefit to the dragon , see this viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611 and this viewtopic.php?f=6&t=234738&p=1806050#p1806050

His diet should include mostly live insects at 6 months old, and he should be on two meals of live insects per day at 6 months old + greens. See viewtopic.php?f=18&t=237167

I suggest at the very least put the viv back the right way round , and move the UVB and its dome reflector UNDER the mesh lid so it's about 6-8 inches from the bottom of the compact UVB to the basking spot , and consider :
a) a bigger viv made of timber with front opening sliding glass doors about 4ft L x 2ft sqr
b) upgrading to either a T8 or a T5HO 12%UVB tube in a reflector hood
c) work on improving his diet , fewer mealworms ! more crickets / roaches / silkworms !
CBDs: Puff ( RIP 10Dec2015 (3.2 years old (aneurism)) ,Rex (RIP 16Mar2017 at 4.6 yrs old (unexplained death)) , both adopted at 6wks old..Toothless & Peppa : (5 wks old 19dec2015).
Eastern BT Skinks : George & Mildred (born Sept 2010).
Eastern Water Skinks : Lucky (wild juvenile), rescued from a cat.Taken by a SI and far too soon, 9mths with us. RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles - (rescued injured), small lizard thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016.)
kingofnobbys
BD.org Addict
 
Posts: 6976
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby EllenD » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:00 pm

Poor little guy, he's gotten zero UVB light since you flipped that tank over, but honestly if you've had that Reptisun 10.0 compact UVB light his entire life, he's gotten zero UVB his entire life basically. That UVB compact bulb is only a 13 watt bulb, and unfortunately unless it is within 4-6" of him unobstructed it is not getting any UVB light to him. Also, it stopped emitting any UVB light anyway at 6 months old, even though it isn't burnt out and still turns on. So here's what you've got going on:

Your temperature ranges are okay, though way too hot at night. If you have a source of heat on at night please turn it off. Your goal is to replicate natural sunlight during the day and desert conditions at night as closely as you possibly can. So at night he wants it #1) Pitch black with absolutely no lights on, and #2) Much cooler temperature than it is during the day. You need absolutely no nighttime heat source if his enclosure stays at 65 degrees at night with nothing turned on. Your house would have to be 60 degrees or colder for his enclosure to drop below 65. So he's not been very comfortable at night and not slept well at all at 85-90 degrees. So from now on at bedtime turn all lights off, no night light, no Ceramic Heat Emitters or Heat Mats, nothing. He wants his nighttime temperature to be down in the 65-70 degree range.

His basking spot surface temperature (AS MEASURED WITH A DIGITAL PROBE THERMOMETER OR A GUN, NO STICK-ON THERMOMETERS THAT ARE OFF BY UP TO 20 DEGREES) should be between 105-110, as he gets older he will want it a bit cooler, not much, but a bit. A good way of knowing if he's too hot on his basking spot is if he stops making himself a darker color and he stays bright when he's on the basking spot. When he's darker he's purposefully doing this to absorb more heat, if he stops making himself dark then he's probably at the max temp he can take. Usually around a year old they like it between 98-103 on their basking spot, but he's fine for now. His Hot Side Ambient should be between 88-93 degrees, and his Cool Side Ambient should be between 75-80 degrees absolute max, he needs a place in this range at all times to cool down any time he wants to. THE ABSOLUTE MAX TEMPERATURE INSIDE HIS ENCLOSURE AT ANY TIME SHOULD BE 110.

*****Now here's your big problem: You absolutely must go and buy him a new UVB tube and matching length fixture. There are very few UVB lights sold that are adequate for the requirements of a bearded dragon, being a desert reptile with strong UVB and UVA needs. You should not ever use a compact (regular lightbulb shape like you currently have) unless it is a 26 watt, and the only one I'm aware of is the Exo Terra 200 UVB compact bulb that is rated at 26 watts. However, I do not ever recommend this bulb because as you go up in enclosure size, you'll need a long tube with a reflector behind it to emit adequate UVB light throughout the enclosure. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT A BEARDED DRAGON WITH AN ADEQUATE, 10.0 LONG UVB TUBE IN A LONG FIXTURE WITH A REFLECTOR BEHIND THE TUBE THAT IS MOUNTED CORRECTLY AND AT THE CORRECT DISTANCE WILL BE A HEALTHY BEARDED DRAGON. Your beardie is not able to digest all of his food, process his nutrition, vitamins, or calcium at all right now, and this is causing him to vomit, be lethargic and weak, and the black beard is a very bad sign. He most likely has the start of MBD at 6 months of no proper UVB light.

You need to get him either an 18" or 24" Reptisun 10.0 (never a 5.0 or below!) T8 UVB tube, or better for him since he's not had any proper UVB light is either a 16" or 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5 High-Output UVB tube, or an 18" or 24" Arcadia 12% T5 UVB tube, all with a matching length tube fixture that absolutely must have a built-in reflector that goes behind the UVB tube (You can order a slip-on or clip-on reflector of the same length if the long tube fixture you buy doesn't have one).

The differences between the Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube and the Reptisun 10.0 T5HO/Arcadia 12% T5 UVB tubes go as follows:

-The 18" or 24" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube absolutely must be mounted INSIDE THE ENCLOSURE AND UNDERNEATH ANY MESH OR GLASS LID, AND CANNOT SIT ON TOP OF ANY TYPE OF LID. The mesh lids block up to 50% of the UVB light emitted and glass and clear plastic block 100% of UVB light, no UVB light penetrates Glass or Clear Plastic! The T8 strength tube also must be mounted within at least 6-8" of his main basking spot for him to get adequate UVB light, and the T8 UVB tubes must be replaced like clockwork every 6 months at the max.

-The Reptisun 10.0 T5HO and the Arcadia 12% UVB tubes can sit on top of a MESH LID, BUT NEVER EVER ON TOP OF A GLASS OR CLEAR PLASTIC LID. Even though the T5 tubes can sit on top of a mesh lid, they still must be within at least 11" of his main basking spot, and they must be replaced like clockwork every 10 months to a year.

So please get him one of these 3 long UVB tubes immediately so you can start getting him some quality UVB light every single day. Also, his daily photoperiod must be at least 14 hours every single day, which means both his long UVB tube and his bright white basking bulb must be on for at least 14 hours every single day. In the meantime, if you're somewhere it's warm, you can take him outside on bright, sunny days for a full hour of direct sunlight (hold him while you sit outside, never put him inside any type of tank or tub, he'll heat up and cook!). A solid hour a day of direct, bright, natural sunlight will help a bit, but you really need to immediately buy him a proper UVB tube and fixture and get it mounted in his enclosure correctly, as you still have time to reverse any MBD and bone density issues that have certainly started already.

Here's the other major issue you have: you're feeding him mealworms. This is the other reason he vomited, and if he's impacted or has ever been impacted it's because of the mealworms. He obviously isn't digesting anything right now because he has gotten no UVB light, but even under proper UVB light he still cannot digest mealworm shells. Mealworms have zero nutritional value for a bearded dragon, who by the way, as Knobbys pointed out, should be getting almost 100% live, gut loaded, healthy staple feeders every single day from the day he hatched up until a year old. He's a bit small for 6 months, that' due to no UVB light and not nearly enough live protein. Either way, please stop feeding him any mealworms at all, not even as a treat. They are mostly just hard, chitlin shell that hey cannot digest, and the rest of them is nothing but fat. People who feed their beardies mealworms almost always have fatty liver disease and constant impaction issues. Adequate live staple feeders are appropriately sized crickets, different species of roaches, Phoenix Worms/BSFL/Reptiworms/Calciworms/Nutrigrubs (all the same thing), Silkworms, and locusts. That's pretty much it for the staple live feeders. Always gut load the live insects with the healthy greens and veggies right before you feed them to your beardie, as he doesn't need to eat many greens until he's over a year old, nor will he probably want to. They keep growing up to 2 years, so you have time to correct and reverse this stuff and get him back on track as far as his size and his bone density, but you must get it corrected now...
"Dance like nobody's watching..."
EllenD
Sub-Adult Poster
 
Posts: 1414
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:08 pm
Location: State College, PA

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby AHBD » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:42 pm

Good info posted about the heat, lights, uvb. If it's 85-90 at night, that could be what made him sick.....that's way too high. All the heat made him thirsty, then he drank too fast is another potential cause. Mealworms as a small part of his diet is not going to harm him though, I've used them through the years but not as a staple. Here are some charts to compare their nutritional content if anyone wants to check:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... RCOxPU_Pgw

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... efxT5dygYo

But like has been pointed out, if you have the uvb on top of glass he isn't getting any at all so you need to adjust his lighting ASAP..

How is he today ?
AHBD
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 18168
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:20 am

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:26 pm

AHBD wrote:Good info posted about the heat, lights, uvb. If it's 85-90 at night, that could be what made him sick.....that's way too high.
<<< I doubt that , my gang seek out their warm hides nearly every night, my 7W heatpads are sandwiched between tiles and run 24/7 and are set to hold 36 degC by a dedicated switching thermostat.
<<< in their natural range it is normal for the nights to remain warm in the warm months. (about 25 degC air temperature (warmer a few inches underground) . See http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJD ... test.shtml
<<< My gang do nice moist poos despite that.

All the heat made him thirsty, then he drank too fast is another potential cause. Mealworms as a small part of his diet is not going to harm him though, I've used them through the years but not as a staple. Here are some charts to compare their nutritional content if anyone wants to check:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... RCOxPU_Pgw

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... efxT5dygYo

But like has been pointed out, if you have the uvb on top of glass he isn't getting any at all so you need to adjust his lighting ASAP..

How is he today ?
CBDs: Puff ( RIP 10Dec2015 (3.2 years old (aneurism)) ,Rex (RIP 16Mar2017 at 4.6 yrs old (unexplained death)) , both adopted at 6wks old..Toothless & Peppa : (5 wks old 19dec2015).
Eastern BT Skinks : George & Mildred (born Sept 2010).
Eastern Water Skinks : Lucky (wild juvenile), rescued from a cat.Taken by a SI and far too soon, 9mths with us. RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles - (rescued injured), small lizard thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016.)
kingofnobbys
BD.org Addict
 
Posts: 6976
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby AHBD » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:23 pm

If you Google every bearded dragon breeder's website that you can find, or ask any long time owner,not one would recommend 90 degrees as being acceptable at night. And I'm sure there are areas that beardies get out of the heat on those nights when the temps. stay that high.


Overheating can lead to excess thirst , and even if that were not the main factor in this, drinking water too quickly does cause beardies to vomit at times.
AHBD
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 18168
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:20 am

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:37 pm

AHBD wrote:If you Google every bearded dragon breeder's website that you can find, or ask any long time owner,not one would recommend 90 degrees as being acceptable at night. And I'm sure there are areas that beardies get out of the heat on those nights when the temps. stay that high.


Overheating can lead to excess thirst , and even if that were not the main factor in this, drinking water too quickly does cause beardies to vomit at times.


Yes indeed , my gang will move into and out of their heated heat overnight, changing sleeping spots from the warm end of the hide to the back (room temp) end of the tank and back again to suit their needs, they all choose to bed down most nights where it's warm.

In the wild they will often use crevaces in the rocks , hollows in trees and logs and even rabbit warrens to bed down in at night (is going to stay warm overnight underground) in heatwave conditions where the temperatures will stay over 90F for weeks (even at night) they are seen sleeping.

I'm not advocating keeping the entire viv warmer than 90F (32 degC) , just a small limited area (1/4) and giving the dragon the choice where it beds down.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Puff ( RIP 10Dec2015 (3.2 years old (aneurism)) ,Rex (RIP 16Mar2017 at 4.6 yrs old (unexplained death)) , both adopted at 6wks old..Toothless & Peppa : (5 wks old 19dec2015).
Eastern BT Skinks : George & Mildred (born Sept 2010).
Eastern Water Skinks : Lucky (wild juvenile), rescued from a cat.Taken by a SI and far too soon, 9mths with us. RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles - (rescued injured), small lizard thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016.)
kingofnobbys
BD.org Addict
 
Posts: 6976
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby AHBD » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:43 pm

Wild beardies are going to find a place that's cooler than 90 degrees. And wild animals do die during heat waves, even those that are built for heat. But I won't add anymore about this, just want to make the O.P and anyone reading this to avoid such high night temps. at all times during the night.
AHBD
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 18168
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:20 am

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:00 pm

Bearded dragon preferred body temperature is 35 degC (from Wilson).

See viewtopic.php?f=5&t=233516 fig 24.15.
CBDs: Puff ( RIP 10Dec2015 (3.2 years old (aneurism)) ,Rex (RIP 16Mar2017 at 4.6 yrs old (unexplained death)) , both adopted at 6wks old..Toothless & Peppa : (5 wks old 19dec2015).
Eastern BT Skinks : George & Mildred (born Sept 2010).
Eastern Water Skinks : Lucky (wild juvenile), rescued from a cat.Taken by a SI and far too soon, 9mths with us. RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles - (rescued injured), small lizard thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016.)
kingofnobbys
BD.org Addict
 
Posts: 6976
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: throwing up crickets & worms + blackbeard

Postby EllenD » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:40 am

Okay guys, lol, I think we can all agree that 85-90 degrees at night is way too hot for a captive beardie inside a glass tank, it's not ever recommended on this forum, in fact if the OP had posted that he was using a CHE at night to keep the temp at 85-90 during the night, we would have all corrected that... However, not the biggest problem this OP has either way, though it is a problem, this dragon has basically gotten ZERO UVB LIGHT IT'S ENTIRE LIFE! This is a huge issue. Using the same 10.0 compact UVB bulb that is 13 watts, on top of a mesh lid, and at least 10"-12"+ away from the dragon for over 6 months is going to cause a host of problems like MBD, stunted growth, lethargy, etc. So this is what we need to concentrate on...

The OP hasn't commented back about getting this poor little guy a proper UVB tube set up correctly yet, or adjusting his temps, or stopping mealworms as A DAILY STAPLE FEEDER (don't think mealworms as a daily staple is good in any way, least of all when there is zero UVB or UVA light). I hope the OP comes back because this dragon is just going to have the same fate we see every day, and I for one am tired of them dying because of bad pet store/breeder advice...
"Dance like nobody's watching..."
EllenD
Sub-Adult Poster
 
Posts: 1414
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:08 pm
Location: State College, PA


Return to Beardie ER

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users