First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie angst)

This forum is for people to discuss the issues specifically around having to deal with infectious diseases such as Adeno virus or Coccidia.

First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie angst)

Postby SqueakztheTiger » Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:27 pm

[TOPIC AUTO-LOCKED DUE TO INACTIVITY]

I've been treating my six month old male beardie Frank for parasites. The vet perscribed Metronidazole and Albon, however, she wanted me to give them to Frank one after the other instead of together. I was supposed to start with the Albon, but the place she had me order it from was taking a bit getting the order out, so we went ahead and started with the Metronidazole, once a week for four weeks.

Frank did fine on the Metronidazole. Before I started him on the Albon, I had another fecal test done just to be sure. The vet confirmed that the Albon was still necessary, so I started him on that: .16 ml once a day for five days, then once every other day for five more doses.

The problem came half way through the Albon treatment, when I realized that when the vet did the dosage for Frank at the appointment, he weighed 152 grams. When I weighed him last Thursday, he was at 320 grams (I weighed him yesterday and he was 338 grams, haven't measured him but I'm guessing he's at around 16 inches or more). I called the vet, and she adjusted the dosage to .32 ml for five more doses every other day.

There are three more doses left, and then the vet wanted me to wait two weeks to do a fecal. I'm worried that the Albon won't clear it and that I'll have to put him through the meds for another round.

He still poops either daily or every other day. They're a little watery and chunky looking, with some undigested bug bits, but still formed. The urates are white and don't look hard. I'm hoping to catch a fresh poop from him tomorrow since I'm home, it's hard to really get an idea when his poop has been sitting for a while by the time I get home from work.

Frank's appetite has gone down a lot since being on the Albon. He still eats at least 3-5 super worms a day, his greens are a hit or miss, but he'll either eat a few bites or finish off half. Yesterday when I came home, he hadn't touched the 5 super worms and 2 butter worms or the salad I left for him, and was napping under his half log. But when my husband dropped the worms in front of Frank, he ate them just fine. I was curious about when I should break out the critical care and start feeding him. I've been weighing him once or twice a week, and he's only been gaining weight. I don't want him to be lacking in nutrition, but at the same time, if he's still gaining weight, I don't want to force food in him if he might not need it.

As far as water, I don't have a water bowl in his cage. I spray his greens down and give him 10 minute bath every couple of days. Plus I give him a liquid multivitamin twice a week via syringe diluted with water. Also he has been getting acidophilus+ via syringe daily. I've only see him actually drink water in the bath twice since I've gotten him, so I'm guessing if he's thirsty, he'll drink. But I don't know, thoughts?

Frank has been napping more on top of the gradually decreasing appetite, but he's still fairly aware. When I take him out, he wakes up, climbs around my shoulder and explores a bit when I have him with me on the bed. When I put him back in his cage, he usually basks for an hour or so when I put him back in his cage. He's always been fairly mellow since I got him in August. The breeder I got him from said that Frank slowing down kind of sounded like he was getting ready to brumate. I thought he was too young for that, but he said that Frank is pretty large for his age. So now I wondering if brumation is possibly kicking in while I'm trying to clear him of parasites or if this kind of behavior is just the meds.

Cleaning I stepped up on this last week. The vet had said it should be fine to just make sure to clean thoroughly the spot he pooped on. But last week I just took everything out, laid down paper towels, and now he only has his cave, half log, and basking rock. Daily I through out the paper towels around where he pooped, spray the area down with F10 disinfectant and let it sit for a few minutes. He always poops next to his basking rock, so I take that out and scrub it with f10 even if he didn't poop on it directly. Every other day I take out everything, spray down the cage surface with f10 and let it sit. I also spray down the cave, log, and rock, the log I dry in the oven at 250 for an hour. But with the horror stories I've read about parasites, I feel like the cleaning I'm doing is not enough.

Other info:

Image

- Frank's cage is 5 ft x 2 ft x 2ft ( the two pieces of grapewood in the picture are not in his cage at the moment)

Image

- Frank in a picture I took a few days ago, looking super healthy and making me look like a crazy person for worrying so much.

- The basking light is a philips duramax 65w 120v flood bulb
- There is also a Zoo Med ReptiCare Ceramic Infrared Heat Emitter 60 Watts on a lamp dimmer
- For UVB I have an Arcadia 34" T-5 HO Fixture with an arcadia D3+ 12% HO Bulb with a reflector, and then there is also a Arcadia Natural Sunlight T8 Bulb 2% UVB 18 Watt 24". The closest point point to the light uvb is 16", I'm going to try and figure out a way to hang the T5 fixture lower. With the solar meter 6.2 I have, the UVB output around the areas Frank usually sticks around range between 80-140 uW/cm², some spots get up to 170 uW/cm² or more. Going off the http://www.uvguide.co.uk/ website, that seems like a good range, but if anyone has more input on levels of UVB, please share.
- Temps in the cage are:
*Basking spot around 100-107F
*warm side in general is around 95F-100F
*Cool side averages in the lower to mid 80s
- Humidity on the cool side tends to stay between 37%-41%, I have the digital thermometer/hygrometer on the cool side. I need to get one for the warm side, but the last time I checked the humidity on the warm side, it was in the low 30s.
-Night temps are around 70F on the cool side (humidity usually goes up to around 40%-44%), and the warm side is around 78F-80F. I've been keeping it a tad warmer at night for him while doing the meds.
- I was dusting his morning meal with calcium 5x a week. But then I was worried he wasn't getting enough calcium when his nose felt a little soft. Also since he probably wasn't getting to his breakfast right away, the bugs probably cleaned off the calcium powder by the time he would get to them. I'm probably being overly worried, but I decided to just switch to liquid calcium (ordered some liquid calcium glubionate so I know for sure that Frank is getting calcium).

This post is way too long, I realize that. It's a mixture of questions but also just thinking out loud and hoping for feedback. I'm trying to keep cool, but I feel helpless since this is my first reptile. Despite all the research, I feel like I'm fudging stuff up.
User avatar
SqueakztheTiger
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 am
Location: Renton, WA
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby Drache613 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:33 pm

Hello,

Frank is absolutely beautiful! :D
I honestly don't think you are messing anything up.
That Albon is so harsh on their system so that is most likely what is going on. It really does affect the appetite a lot. Keep giving him the acidophiliz, that should hopefully help him out a lot. You can also try finding some bee pollen to help boost his appetite & immune system, also.
Since he is gaining weight, you can hold off on the critical care since you are getting vitamins into him & are about to start using liquid calcium, too.
If he is drinking the acidophiliz he is probably getting enough fluids. Most of the time they wont drink out of a bowl, but can be trained to do so. You can try getting him to drink water from a dropper, too.
Also, at his size & age brumation is a large possibility, too. Do you know his weight? They can start brumation at 5 or 6 months of age if they are big enough in weight & healthy which he looks like he is.
The cleaning you are doing is perfectly fine, more than adequate. Cleaning it all with the F10, baking the logs, etc will get it all taken care of. I am sure he isn't happy about having his things gone. I love the large grapevine log!
Fantastic lighting, he is getting excellent UVB per cm2 readings on that. I have two meters & they definitely help out. The UK guide is awesome, very informative. I am impressed you have done so much legwork for him. The HO light, you could safely have it at 8-12 inches as long as the bright white light is directly beside it to protect his eyes. If he has several ranges to choose from, he will regulate his D3 levels for exposure. They are instinctive when it comes to UVB light.
The duramax basking flood light is fine, I checked on it & the light isn't coated with neodymium so it should be fine. The temperatures are good as well. Keeping him a little warmer at night while on meds helps out for him too.
How much longer does he have on meds?
What greens/veggies does he eat, normally? Have you tried any crickets or dubia roaches for him also?

I think you are doing fine!
Let us know how Frank is doing.

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38708
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby SqueakztheTiger » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:04 am

Thank you very much for the response. I actually ordered bee pollen and should have it in a few days. He weighed 338 grams (length is probably close to 16 or so inches) around Thursday, but I weighed him again yesterday and he'd lost 3 grams. He has two doses of Albon left, today and Wednesday.

I have a little squeeze bottle that I fill with water and drip on his nose or close to it that I use while he's in the bath. He'll give me the "What the. ..are you doing?" stare. I think he lapped at it once by accident or to humor me. But a few times I've seen him swim around in the water and drink when he's thirsty. So I figured he was getting plenty of fluids.

I give him collards and mustard greens as a staple, and I'll either sprinkle acorn squash, zucchini, or mint leaves on it. I've tried, before the meds, to add more variety with his salad, but he wasn't having it. The above combinations are what I found he'd actually eat the most of, so I figured that I would just stick with those and try adding different veggies again after the meds are done.

As far as protein, for a while the routine was a breakfast of super worms, phoenix worms, and a couple of butter worms. Then in the afternoon I would give him roaches. Saturday he ate nothing at all, but yesterday he ate three roaches for my husband, and he picked at his salad on his own.

Behavior wise, despite having lost a few grams and napping more, he's fairly active. I confirmed this weekend that, in the morning, he's still coming out from under his log or cave to bask. In general he's always aware when someone is in the room, and likes to climb around on my shoulders. And he's constantly licking me or walls.

Yesterday, since I didn't need to give him the Albon, I gave him a break from syringes. He's a little better about opening his mouth when I'm trying to give him a syringe full of meds or supplements, but it's not his favorite thing. I'm going to start the liquid calcium today though. I know it's about .1 CC per 100 grams of body weight, but is it the same as the calcium powder in that I give it to him five times a week?

Also if brumation is possibly setting in, how much weight can he lose?
User avatar
SqueakztheTiger
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 am
Location: Renton, WA

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby Drache613 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:48 pm

Hello,

During brumation, they shouldn't really lose much weight during brumation if they are healthy. He may just partially brumate but not fully. It really depends on the dragon, they tend to do different thing.
Once he is done with all of his meds, then he might slow down a little more.
The most important thing is to keep him hydrated while in brumation, just to be sure he doesn't get dehydrated while sleeping.
If he is drinking some while in his bath then he is most likely getting enough. They will usually drink when they need to.
The salad variety is fine. If he is eating a little bit then that is ok. Not all of them like a huge variety & will oftentimes develop a favorite. Plus, his appetite is off a little right now, too.
Hopefully his appetite will pick up soon. He should begin eating more insects also. If you find that he starts to lose too much, say more than 10 to 15 grams, then you could supplement a little bit with critical care if you wanted. He looks good right now.
At least he is still somewhat active & is basking too. He must not be feeling too badly then. I am glad to hear he isn't spending a lot of time in his cave or under his log, too.
That is great he will open his mouth a little more for the meds & supplements right now.
How much does he weigh & I can dose him for the calcium. What is the strength of the calcium? The calcium glubionate is different than calcium carbonate in powder form.

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38708
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby SqueakztheTiger » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:35 am

Last I checked him, he weighed about 335 grams. The strength of the calcium glubionate is 23 mg/ml.

Yesterday I let him run around the living room. He ran back and forth the length of the room a couple of times, then ran along the wall under the windows. So I picked him up and set him on the window sill, which he promptly did his superman pose. Probably will need to get him something that he can use to climb from the floor to the window.

When I put food in his cage and he's awake, he watches the food bowls like he wants to eat. But if I put a bug in front of him he either backs away or just closes his eyes. I'm hoping this translates to wants to eat but his stomach is funky from the Albon, so hopefully once the medicine has run it's course, he'll be eating a little better. He's still pooping once a day or every other day, they're small and pitiful looking, but I figure that must mean he's eating something.
User avatar
SqueakztheTiger
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 am
Location: Renton, WA

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby Drache613 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:33 pm

Hello,

You can give him .015ml of the glubionate, which is dosed for his weight.
The meds really do affect them so hopefully he will feel better once he is done with them!
How are his colors doing, is his beard black at all?
It sounds like he had a good time running around the house & sitting in the windowsill.
I guess he just doesn't have the energy to go after his insects yet but he should be more willing to go after his food!
I am sure that he isn't passing much through without eating a whole lot.
Keep us posted on Frank. I am sure he will get back to normal soon!

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38708
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby SqueakztheTiger » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:01 am

Thank you for the calcium dosage. Do I give him that 5 times a week and then gradually decrease the dosage as he reaches adulthood? Also, as he gets bigger, should I be increasing the dosage amount from .015 ml? Essentially, for future reference, how do you figure out the correct dosage?

His colors look beautiful, always reminds me of an orange creamsicle :) He has not black bearded; the only time he came close was when he made a mad dash across the yard, about a month or so ago, and was pissed that I caught him. He didn't bite or tail whip, but gaped his mouth and flared out his beard, which turned a little gray like it was going to go black, but never did.

It looked like he ate part of his salad yesterday; I was pretty excited about that. Today is his final dose of Albon and then waiting two weeks before giving the vet a fecal sample. I'm still worried about whether or not he'll have to do a second round of meds.
User avatar
SqueakztheTiger
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 am
Location: Renton, WA

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby SqueakztheTiger » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:27 pm

I weighed Frank today. He's still at 335 grams, so he's neither gained nor lost any weight.

I gave him the liquid calcium, .015 ml is a super small amount so just double checking that I got it right?

He hasn't pooped in three days. I just gave him a bath to see if maybe he'd poop in the bath, but he just sat there glaring at me, probably for waking him up.

Since he hadn't been pooping at all, I held off on a full cage cleaning for a few days. I did a full cage clean today and found a super worm that had managed to hide from me. I'm trying not to be paranoid that it somehow re infected him.
User avatar
SqueakztheTiger
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 am
Location: Renton, WA
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby Drache613 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:19 pm

Hello,

Yes, as he gets older, his dose increases too. You can give the calcium 5 times per week until he becomes an adult, then back off to 3 times.
I am glad he is done with the Albon now. His colors sound great also!
They do get mad if they are outside & you catch them when they are running around, too.
He was likely upset that you disturbed him.
That is good news he ate some of his salad, too!
I don't think he would reinfect himself with a superworm though. He probably didn't know it was in there.
If you need, I can PM you & show you how to dose the calcium.
Let us know how Frank is doing!

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38708
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby SqueakztheTiger » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:13 pm

Yes I would appreciate it if you could PM me about figuring out the liquid calcium dosing. The bottle directions said .1 CC per 100 grams of body weight, is that wrong?
User avatar
SqueakztheTiger
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 am
Location: Renton, WA

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby Drache613 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:09 pm

Hello,

I don't think that it is wrong, but does it give specifics on weight or is that just a generalized dose?
I can help you dose for the weight, based on the strength of the solution.


Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38708
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby jarich » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:38 pm

Drache613 wrote:Hello,

Frank is absolutely beautiful! :D ...
Fantastic lighting, he is getting excellent UVB per cm2 readings on that. I have two meters & they definitely help out. The UK guide is awesome, very informative. I am impressed you have done so much legwork for him. The HO light, you could safely have it at 8-12 inches as long as the bright white light is directly beside it to protect his eyes. If he has several ranges to choose from, he will regulate his D3 levels for exposure.

Tracie


Sorry, just a small thing I think you might have missed Tracie. She said she has an Arcadia fixture with reflector, so 8-12" would be a bit too close for safety. The 16" you have it at now is absolutely fine Squeak.
jarich
Juvie Poster
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:48 am

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby SqueakztheTiger » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:35 pm

Thank you for the info!
User avatar
SqueakztheTiger
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 am
Location: Renton, WA

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby Drache613 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:26 pm

Hello,

Sure, with a reflector a bit further away would be a good idea, absolutely. If you didn't have a reflector, a little closer is good, with a bright light.
Your set up though is great! :D
How is Frank doing now?

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38708
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: First time dealing with parasites (and general newbie an

Postby SqueakztheTiger » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:11 am

Frank is doing fine. I took a fecal sample to the vet about two weeks ago and they confirmed that he was all clear for coccidia. The levels of protozoa were high though, so the vet wanted to go for one more round of metronidazole.

I've been giving him at least 3-4 baths a week. Between the medicine and the fact that it's been pretty dry for the last couple of weeks, I've been trying to make sure Frank is hydrated. He's actually gone from only being able to stand the baths for 10 minutes, to sitting in there for 20 or so minutes before he starts signaling that he's done. I also have been trying out putting a dish of water in his cage. I don't think he's actually using it, but I was mainly curious what it would do to the humidity. Turns out not much; humidity on the cool side has been around 25%, which I know is excellent for them, but then the humidity on the warm side can drop a little under 20%, which is probably why I've been finding him chilling more on his branch on the cooler side.

Winter's setting in, complete with temperature drops (getting down into the 30s). We have been keeping our house around 60-65F. I felt like a dunce after I realized that, although the surface temp on Frank's basking spots were generally around 103-105F, the ambient temperature of the warm side was in the mid to lower 80s, which probably was partially causing him to nap more. I've since adjusted it so that his main basking spot he uses will get around 107-110F and the ambient temp is usually around 92-95 F. I've caught him a few times on his log with his mouth open, so at least I know he's getting nice and warmed up.

Frank's still napping, but it seems like he's doing it a little less. When he's awake he's still pretty alert, and when he's out of his cage he's either climbing around on or constantly checking out his surroundings. He's still eating very minimal, picking at his salad now and then. I had gotten some horned worms and he had no problem eating those, but he's been refusing all his other feeders. He gained about 20 grams in two weeks, which I'm thinking were the horned warms. I know not to use them as a staple, so I'm holding off getting more, but I mainly was using them as a way to coax him back into eating again. I've taken to leaving just a salad in his cage daily, and then in the afternoons seeing if he'll eat a bug or two. I figure I won't start putting out a plate of feeders in the morning until either I see more salad gone when I get home, or he is eating more bugs when I hand feed him. I've still been giving him his supplements regularly. I'm thinking that he's going through a mixture of recovery and brumation, but I really don't know. I was debating on maybe giving him a small mixture of baby food and critical care a couple of times a week.

His bowel movements are still irregular, but the last two days he's actually pooped on his own in his cage. They have both been small and watery, which is concerning but given that he's probably taking in more water than food, I don't know. I was going to call the vet to let her know and see what she thinks.

Sorry that I get so long winded with these posts :oops: Here's a few pictures of him roaming the living room. Outwardly, he still looks pretty good, doesn't look sickly.

Image

Image

Image
User avatar
SqueakztheTiger
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 am
Location: Renton, WA
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Next

Return to Dealing with Infectious Diseases

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users