Seeking Advice ASAP for Very Sick Beardie, Please Help

Hello all,
I'm new to the Board but I've had a large male Beardie named Swamp Thing for almost five years (got him at 7 weeks from a reputable breeder) and he's never had any health problems. As of two weeks ago, he has stopped eating entirely and has gone from pooping 2-3 times a week in a warm bath to multiple times a day in his enclosure (he usually never poops in his enclosure), and mostly just passes urates and thick green/yellow mucus (no solid brown stool, since he hasn't been eating). He gets poop caked to his underbelly and tail although normally he is very clean and lifts his tail when he goes. It's almost as if he's incontinent. Also, I've noticed a major change in his coloration. He is very pale, and his normally light orange beard is now completely black all the time (which I've never seen before on him). He is now lethargic, his eyelids are droopy, he seems fatigued and miserable. When provoked he does move and scurry, but spends most of the day slumped on a log half-conscious.
I've taken him to two exotic animal vets. The first saw a large load of coccidia in his stool, we gave him antibiotics, which didn't help. The second vet said he had flagellated organisms (likely Giardia, from the cricket's gut) in his stool and is now on a course of Flagyl which is not helping at all. He is just getting worse. His belly is soft, nontender, no hard masses, and both vets agree that he is not impacted or obstructed (he is passing mucus from his GI tract). The rest of his physical exam was normal. He has lost about 20% of his body weight. There are no outward signs of infection, fungal or bacterial. Nothing about his upkeep has changed in at least a year and a half (same enclosure,lighting, temps, buy crickets from same store, etc.) I have been force feeding him baby food, fruit, and greens, and he will sip water from his baths. But this is just a temporary measure, I need some ideas as to what the underlying problem could be. Please, could someone with beardie experience help me before I lose my little guy. I've had him for five years and he means so much to me. Here's some more info:
Age: 5 years Length: 22 inches Weight: 600 grams and dropping Sex: male
Enclosure: 40 gallon breeding tank
Substrate: sand (please don't jump on me for this, he has been fine on it for 5 years and like I said he does not have any signs of being obstructed or impacted)
Diet: large crickets 1-2 dozen 3x/week, dusted with Rep-Cal and Herptivite; mixed greens, blueberries/rasberries (definitely cricket-heavy, he hates greens)
Light source: Powersun mercury vapor bulb, temps from 80 on cool side to 110 on hot side

Thank you. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'll check back frequently to answer any questions.

Hi,
I'm sorry your guy isn't feeling well. Sounds like you know your stuff so I'm not going to throw a ton of questions at you, but there are a few. I'm not an expert, but have dealt with coccidia (both Kaira and Taz) and flagellates (Kaira, once).
What are you using to measure the temps?
Did you take him back to make sure that he was clear of the parasites and flagellates? Oops, read that wrong. Did he have any coccidia the 2nd time you took him to the vet or was it just flagellates? When was he started on the meds and when is he supposed to be done with them?
How much fruit (babyfood or otherwise) are you giving him?
I just looked through a few of my bookmarked sites (if you'd like the links I can post them) and it sounds like it's really the Giardia and (in my opinion) a lack of good bacteria in his digestive tract.
Most (from what I've read and been told by my vet) flagellates are from dirty water or greens.
I've dealt with flagellates once before but it wasn't a case this severe. My two have gone rounds with coccidia, though. Have you tried using a probiotic to help put some of the good bacteria back into his system?
Again, I'm not an expert or anything like that. I just thought I might throw a few ideas out there.
I hope he gets better, poor guy,
Abi

Hey Abi,

Thanks so much for your response.

For day-to-day monitoring of temperature I have a plastic guage with a meter secured to the enclosure (one for hot side, and one for cold side), but every so often I do measure the temps digitally to make sure they haven't changed.
During the second vet visit (when they discovered the flagellates) he did not have any detectable coccidia (so I'm assuming the antibiotic did its job although his underlying condition did not improve). He was diagnosed with the flagellates about a week ago, and he has a day left of the Flagyl; he was on it for seven days (he should be improving by now).
I just started force feeding him and have not been giving him that much so far. A couple cc's of pureed chicken baby food with his Flagyl, and some cut up berries. I know it's not enough to make him gain weight or even maintain his weight but he is very resistant to force feeding and I am not sure whether baby food is the most balanced in terms of nutrients and vitamins. Have you had any experience with "Jumpstart"? What probiotic have you used or heard of? Do you have any experience with "Carnivore Care" as a diet substitute?

Thanks again for your reply, good to hear that your little ones made it through these nasty infections.

Julie

Julie,
It's not a problem. I understand what you're going through...it's not easy to see them like that and very frustrating.
When you say you check the temp digitally do you mean with a temp gun or something else? Sorry, I don't know the exact terms lol.
Yeah, I would think he would be improving...do you happen to know what the coccidia count was or how they "rated" (it's not a count, so I don't know what to call it) the flagellates? Or for the coccidia how many per slide they saw? From my experiences, when their bodies are run down by the meds (like Albon for coccidia) and then they are treated for something else with harsh meds, it can cause their coccidia level to rise again from the stress on their system. Heck, even shedding can cause their coccidia levels to rise. That said, can you just take a "sample" to one of the vets? Can I ask why you saw two? Second opinion? I just had a really bad experience with one vet, that's why I ask and having two vets treating him could cause some confusion. Anyways, can you get another fecal done without having to take him to the vet? I think either way he needs another fecal, but it might be better if he doesn't have to be taken there (just adds more stress). He may need a vet to look at him again completely though, so I don't know that one...I'd just make sure you get at least a fecal done soon to see where he's at now.
I put Kaira on JumpStart for about 5 days not too long ago. It didn't help her. She's going through a really bad shed and isn't eating much on her own. The problem with JumpStart, that I've been told, is that there is a lot of sugar in it. I think this maybe part of the problem with the babyfood mixture you are giving also. Too many fruits can cause some of the loose, nasty stools you're describing (I don't know that for a fact, because I don't feed fruit to my two, but I was advised to only use it as a "treat" when I started Kaira on babyfood for a little while). That's obviously not the main problem, but I don't think it's helping with the stools. Can you get squash (my two love squash), sweet potatoes, green beans, or pea babyfood? That's a little better for them when you do have to resort to babyfood feedings.
I'd start him on a probiotic. I've used: http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=227. I've heard that the second one is easier to use because it's more of a gel, the first is a liquid that has to be put in the fridge after opening, then allowed time to get to room temp before giving it to them (it's a bit of a hassle, but the other might be the same way...I haven't looked at the directions yet :? ). I've never used Carnivore Care, but I have heard of it. I can't help you with that one, somebody else will be able to though.
What I would do (this is just me), is take in a sample, see what's going on there and get the counts too (I don't treat coccidia unless the count is extremely high because of how much damage the Albon can do). I'd also switch to maybe squash or sweet potatoes babyfood for a few days to see if that helps any. I'd say use green beans or peas, but he may not like that even more after getting the fruit...squash might be an easier switch. And then just a little bit of the chicken or turkey babyfood with the squash/sweet potatoes.
I wish I could help more but I just don't know enough about the Carnivore Care to say whether or not it is a better "diet" for them. Most say don't force feed, but I understand how hard it is to watch them not eat. I found that "helping" Kaira (I didn't have to force it on her so much, just get her to taste it) get a little babyfood in her tummy, she'd eat a little bit of live food or greens on her own.
Taz just had a fecal done and had about 9 coccidia per slide (probably a 1+ or 2+ count)...I'm not treating him for it. Their bodies are usually, not in some cases and not in cases where the count is extremely high, able to "take care" of it on its own. So, I'm not saying to treat him for coccidia if his levels are up again, unless absolutely necessary (like when they couldn't even get a count on my two because there were so many). Flagellates are a little different, though. With any medication you want to increase baths for hydration...he's losing it through the loose stools.
I think I'm starting to just tell you my stories now lol.
Basically, make sure the temps are correct as stick-ons can be up to 20 degrees off, increase bathing, get a probiotic, do another fecal, and in the meantime change the babyfood for a bit. That's what I would do. Somebody that does have more knowledge on the flagellates specifically (I know more about the coccidia and pinworms than anything else) and about what to feed him right now will get on and offer more advice. There could be something else going on, I just don't know enough to offer you anymore suggestions. I can help with the other stuff though :? . Sometimes it just takes different beardies longer to respond to treatment, too. There's too many variables and I don't want to say that I know it's this or that...I'm just pointing out what may be aiding in the stool, I don't know what the cause is.
Sorry that was long. We're all here to help though, so if you have anymore questions (someone will respond to the diet thing) ask away.
Abi

Hello,

First off, the main thing I want to know is what was the dosage of the meds that he was given? Sometimes, meds are not always the right way to go. Did he give you any counts at all after doing the fecal exams?
It is normal for them to have small amounts of coccidia in their system. Giardia, that is some pretty nasty bacteria. The Flagyl should take care of it, but, I would like to know what the dosage was that he was given so I can double check it for you. Overmedicating is hard on them.
The best probiotics are benebac, which was suggested, either powder or gel. You can get that from the petstore sometimes & you will find it in the cat or bird section. If you can't find it then you can order it from: http://www.reptilesupply.com
You can get nutribac from: http://www.reptileuv.com
You can get acidophiliz from: http://www.reptilesupply.com

If you prefer not to order anything online, go to the healthfood store, or look in the supplement & pharmacy area of drugstores or grocery stores for bee pollen, royal jelly & brewer's yeast. Mix up a dab of each, with some water or pedialyte & give to him daily through a plastic dropper or a syringe.
The jumpstart is a good product, but it tends to work for some while it doesn't work as well for others. All dragons are different. It is made from a molasses base which is designed to help with weight gain for anorexic animals. I would stick with the carnivore care & pedialyte, daily.

Your setup looks fine. How old is your Powersun? How far away from him is it?
The supplementation looks good, but the herptivite only needs to be given once a week. The calcium can be given 3 times per week.

I urge you to get a bloodtest. The off colored discharge somewhat worries me. Is that possible to get a blood test?

The carnivore care is very good. It needs to be thinned out. You should try to give .5cc per 50 grams of bodyweight. So, at approximately 600 gram dragon, he could have up to 6 cc's daily, of carnivore care. As suggested, I would probably for now, cut out most, if not all fruit. Too much fruit can irritate the GI tract if they are already having problems, just due to the sugar causing diarrhea.

Is his beard black constantly? If so, that warrants more vet attention. He is in distress, & or pain. So, please let us know how he is doing. I would start with a blood test. Right now, until you find out how his organs are functioning, I would not give anymore medications if they are making him worse.

Tracie

Tracie and Abi, thanks so much for your help. Unfortunately, Swamp Thing passed away last week. I took him back to the vet, and his fecal was clean -- no coccidia or flagellates. I was continuing the carnivore care and hydration and thought he was actually doing better. He was maintaining his weight and was a little more active. His beard was still black though and he was not his "normal self." Two days before his death, the vet gave him an intraperitoneal injection of fluids and calcium. He was also started on a broad-spectrum antibiotic to cover any occult bacterial infection that was not obvious on the wet prep fecal (Baytril, I think?). We had started him on a probiotic as well. I went over the Albon and Metronidazole dosages: 50mg/ml, 0.6ml once daily. He said it was a low dose and should not cause renal insufficiency or hepatotoxicity. The vet believes it was an infection, but I'm not sure. He never had bloodwork for liver or kidney disease. Anyway, it was such a shock; still not sure what it could've been. I wonder sometime if it was something he picked up from the crickets. Thanks again for your advice and compassion.
Julie

Julie,
I'm so sorry for your loss. It's always a shock when you think they are doing better and then they take such a sudden turn for the worse. You did everything right. I believe that the vet was wrong to treat him with both Baytril and Albon at the same time, without any positive tests to back up those treatments. And they are both harsh drugs. I understand why you did give them to Swamp though. I did the same thing with Kaira and kept her on Albon too long. Now she's having some serious health issues from being on such a harsh medication. You did everything in your power to keep him strong and protected against the meds and whatever was really going on.
Our thoughts are with you,
Abi

Hello Julie,

I am sorry for your loss of your baby. That is so devastating since he started to do better for a short period.
I do agree, that both medications really did not need to be given, as they are both extremely nephrotoxic & while at low doses, reptiles just do not always do very well on too many meds. They are small animals & their organs can only handle so much.
If blood tests had of been done, I could have looked over them for you to determine the liver & kidney functions.
Again, if you need anything, just let us know.

Tracie