Very ill beardie

Hello everyone, in a desperate attempt to save our little beardie I have just registered to this website, wish I had known about it earlier! Our little beardie "Spike" is roughly about 8 months old and has been poorly for a while but has gone worse in the last week or so, despite our efforts in force feeding him extra calcium using a pipette and making sure is he has an adequate environment. I took him to the vet on Wednesday where he was given in injection, given antibiotics and tube fed. Same again on Thursday but by today Friday he still no better and has gone into a sort of "shut down" mode where he just sleep and not doing much at all. The only slight improvement was his eyes which had less pus.We have another beardie in the vivarium, a female. She, however is thriving,eating well and doing all the things one would expect a healthy dragon would do. Last night, she bit the nose of the poorly lizard and made countless waves. So when i took our poorly beardie back to the vet today, I ask him if he could keep him in for a few days. The vet agreed but he reckons that Spike has only 10% chance of surviving and that we might consider "putting him to sleep". I am totally devastated and wondered if there is anyone out there who has had a similar experience or if there is any advice anyone could give me, I dont know how long bearded dragons take to recover if they can really recover at all. Im going to phone the vet tomorrow but dont really want to bring Spike home if he s going to be bullied by the stronger lizard. Any help very much appreciated, sorry about the long post.

Hello,

First, I highly recommend that you separate your dragons. If one is sick, it is not advised to keep him or her in with another one because they can infect the other one & the other one can pick on the ill one. Please separate them as soon as you can.
Can you please go over your setup with us. What type & brand of UVB light are you using, is it a flourescent tube bulb or a compact or coil light? Are you using calcium supplementation? What are you using to measure the temps with, a stick on thermometer, a digital probe or a temp gun? What are the temps?
What type of basking light are you using?
What type of substrate are you using?
Do you know what type of injection the vet gave him?
I think you are jumping the gun as to putting him to sleep until we figure out what exactly is going on. Also, please ask the vet what type of antibiotic or medication he is giving him. Alot of times, if the vet is not qualified, they will overmedicate your reptile & he will kill him in the process. We need to figure out what is going on first before he just dumps medication into him.
Did he do a bloodtest on him or a fecal or x-rays? It is not recommended to medicate reptiles without doing a bloodtest first when nothing is determined as to what is wrong with him.
They can recover, but, they need specific care when they are ill. We need to run over your tank setup first & then we can discuss other things. They are very slow healers.
If he is not eating, then request some Critical care formula which is a powdered meal replacement that you can use while he is recovering.
The most important thing though is to separate your dragons first & foremost so he can recover in peace.

Tracie

The last post has great information and questions for you.
It also crosses my mind that your BD might be going into its first Brumation...the body shuts down and hibernates. I've read that each beardie will go into brumation at different stages, meaning you may not see it in the female till later. I definitly agree on getting a licensed vet. My first one had no cluse and ended up injurying her eye by removing a skin of shed.

Let me first say that I am VERY new to beardie parenthood, and am so thankful to have found this site. I too am working through a similar situation with a 4 month old beardie my 17 yr old son purchased at Petsmart in August. El Guapo was diagnosed this week with a severe case of coccidia and dehydration. The only local veterinarian familiar with beardies forced a tube down his throat to administer the meds and water and said that I must do this everyday for the next 3 weeks.

I may be wrong, but I think this kind of force and "manhandling" can make them shut down. I decided instead to get a bottle of un-flavored Pedialyte (an electrolyte replacement liquid for babies) and some Repta-Aid (a vitamin-fortified powder for distressed reptiles.) I warmed the Pedialyte slightly so that it wouldn't be cold and lower his body temp, mixed in the Repta-Aid and then added his medicine for coccidia. He licks this right off the syringe without me having to force anything. Afterwards, I soak him in the tub so he can hydrate even more, and then let him fall asleep on my chest like a baby.

First of all thank you so much Tracy, Vt flash and Guaposmomma for such prompt reply. Well I phoned the vet this morning and the nurse said that he wasnt doing too badly. His weight is stable-74g, he put on 1g since wednesday and his eyes are much brighter. The nurse said that he's still very quiet and just spends a lot of time under the uv light. I am hoping to take him home on monday as I wont be able to get my hands on another vivarium till then. He s still receiving medication, the antibiotics are called "Baydril" and hes had calcium injections. He's is also tube fed with a "recovery" formula to which they ve also added some other supplements. Im afraid that s all the information I managed to extract from the nurse! Here is my set up:

Vivarium is 380x380x750 (mm), with one red bulb for basking, a read brick underneath on the right side of the tank. At the back is a long tube uv light, Exo Terra Repti Glo 2.0 Tube 15W 18in. PT2150. The make of the thermostat is Microclimate, Ministat 300. I didnt have a thermometer up until now but the vet strongly recommended that i buy one, at the time I could only get a digital thermometer which you fix on the wall. I put it 2 days on the cold side, temperatures were 28.8max/24.2min on the cold side and on the hot side 27max/25min (degrees celsius). I was told by the pet shop that temperatures generally should be 31 to 32 degree celsius and realised that my thermostat dial wasnt matching up with the temperature inside the vivarium so had to fiddle a bit with it, the temperature is now 29 degree celsius on the hot side (after having been 33 which i thought was perhaps too hot??). There are 2 medium logs in the vivarium which they love going onto, a dish with vegetables (which never get touched, altho Spike did used to eat the salad), a larger dish with water. They dont eat the crickets anymore so i feed them locusts and wax worm (pre-coated with Nutrobal powder). The substrate is sand (slightly larger grain) but will probably use just kitchen paper when Spike comes back from the vet and is put into his new vivarium. I think he had some x-ray done but im not certain, will ask again on Monday. I must admit i am not confident that im using the right kind of lighting/heating and i hope i can get more advice on this. It wasnt my idea to get the lizards in the first place but my son's father, who after a few months was posted abroad for 3 months and so left me in charge of looking after them, with only basic instructions. I have grown really attached to them so hoping to learn more from this site. I have been getting sleepless nights over Spike and quite a few teary moments so thank you so much for your help and support, its such a relief to know that im not alone in this!! Guaposmomma, i hope your beardie recovers soon, the way you care for him is very touching, let me know how he gets on.

Kind regards

Flora

Hello Flora
Here are some thoughts on your set up, i as well am a new BD owner but met a wonderful lady that has helped me along the way along with two highly qualifed vets.And dont take any of this to heart i had the same set up until i was told other wise.
First off BD are unable to since when they get too hot on the belly and will burn themselve ..so take out the bottom heater, the lights on top are enough.Try to get a uv mecury sun vapor lightthe difference is amazing and your BD will love you for it.. I was told the type brand you have (if its the spiral energy savers) is very damaging to thier eyes. Check out your local pet stores for dicounted tanks i got my 75 gallon long tank for 15 bucks because it leaked and could not be sold as a fish tank. Digital meters are great for temputer i have two, my cold side runs about 75 degrees and his basking spot is 100. Some BD like it hotter if yours starts gapping (mouth open) alot then move it up a little or get a lower wattage. My little guy did not start eating salad till about 4 months but you need to always offer it. I put silk worms in his dish to get him interested and eatting it. Wax worms are really high in fat and can cause health issues, they should be a rare treat.Alot of people use silkworms, butter worms and golith (horm) worms. Check out the mulberry site at the bottom. Alot of people have differnt opinions on using sand as a floor suface. I use reptile carpet most of that is due to him having a leg amputated, my friend went to home depot and had ceramic tile cut to fit. My vet advises people against sand until they are able to eat just using the tounge because they end up injesting the sand...bad bad.
Here are some web site to look at item and food suppliers. Bigapplesupply.com and mulberryfarms.com. Good luck and please keep in contact.
VT FLASH

Hi, I welcome to the forum, we are glad you found us. That's good that Spike is doing a little better, hopefully he can improve even more very soon.

That's good that you are separating them as that is best for both of them. I looked over your response to the questions. The first thing I noticed is the red basking bulb, so would suggest you change that to a bright white basking bulb and you can even use a standard household lightbulb which would save you some money. Beardies do much better with bright light and the red ones can be rough on their eyes.

It's good that you've been using a tube UVB rather than a coil or compact as those are very dangerous. Unfortunately, the bulb you're using though isn't strong enough so he wasn't getting any benefit from it. Here's a site that shows a great tube that is very reasonably priced and they are great to deal with: http://www.petmountain.com/product/bulbs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-high-output-uvb-bulb.html) I'll have to look up the milimeter size of the tank to see if you could use a mercury vapor bulb, as one of those would really help him out.

A digital thermometer that sticks to the glass, isn't giving you an accurate reading as it is only measuring the temp of the glass itself. You need to know the temp in the basking area and on the cool side. The only 2 ways to get an accurate reading are with either a temperature gun or a digital thermometer with a long wire & probe end like this:
Found this at Walmart for about $12.00 and it gives both basking & cool side temps at the same time since it has 2 readouts & it also has a humidity readout. You lay the probe end so that it is resting on the basking site with the thermometer part sitting way over on the cool side, wait about 45 min for the temp to stop rising, the "out" reading is for the basking area & the "in" reading for the cool side. The temps that the petstore suggested are way too low so with the reading of 29 celcius right not, the temp is 84.2 which is quite a bit too cool, you need a basking temp of about 36.6 (98) and up to 43.3 (110) but would suggest you get an accurate thermometer before adjusting the temps. We can help you with the adjustments.

Here's a site that shows the best greens/veggies to feed. http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html

Once you make these changes and he gets home, I'll bet you'll notice a big difference in him. Please keep us updated and we wish you lots of luck. We all know how easy it is to get so attached to them.

Hello,

GREAT that Spike is doing a bit better.
I agree with Diane. The Reptiglo 2 tube bulb is very very weak. One problem has most likely been that due to improper UVB exposure he has not adequately been able to absorb his calcium & it has stunted his growth. That is why he is hypocalcemic & at risk for metabolic bone disease now. At 8 months, & only 78 grams, he needs to gain some weight.
Can you ask the vet to send you home some Critical care formula? It is a high calorie meal replacement with tons of vitamins, minerals & supplemental nutrients in it which can help him on the road to recovery. Great that they tube fed him, that is sometimes the only way that food can get into them when they are ill.
The Baytril is fine, as long as they have properly dosed him according to his weight. Can you check the dosage for me so I can double check it please? Thanks.
The calcium injections will help him tremendously, too. Are you going to be giving powdered or liquid calcium, or did the vet give you any liquid calcium to bring home with you?
I forgot to address your temps. The basking temps that are recommended are 35C (95F) to 43C (110F) & the cooler end around 26C (78F) to 28C (82) approximately. That is why it is a good idea to get the digital probe as Diane suggested.
I hope he is feeling better soon. When will you be able to bring him home?

Tracie

Thanks Tracie, Diane and VT flash, the information about the light is very useful. When you say the light is very weak, you mean 15 W is not strong enough right? Should i buy one that is 25w or 30w? If its going to be right next to the heating light, there wont much space for a long tube uvb light, at the moment i have it along the back wall of the vivarium which is not very deep (380mm).Going to replace the red light with a household bulb right away. I am not sure when I ll be able to bring him home yet but I have arranged to come and see him on Monday afternoon at the vet surgery to see how he s getting on. It may be that we leave him for another night depending on vets verdict. I havent got the second vivarium yet and my local petshop has only compact lights left. So i guess ill have to order a uvb light on the internet which might take some time to arrive. So its probably a good thing that Spike stays at the vet for the time being (sod the expense). Im not sure about what medicine/supplement/or type of calcium i will be sent home with nor do i know the dosage of the injection but i hope to be a little more informed by Monday. And i will be straight onto to this website to let you know! Thank you thank you a thousand times, it really is great to have your support. PS I live in the UK, i guess you all are from the states?

Kind regards

Flora

I don't live in the UK, but I have read on here that there is a better uvb where you are. It's called the Arcadia d3 and, from all I've read, it's a better fluorescent tube than the reptisun 10. You can also get a mega ray as there is a place in your area to order one as I found a link to order the mega ray in the uk on this site: http://www.reptileuv.com. You need at least a 40 breeder tank in order to use this.

Flora, when we said the Repti-Glo 2.0 tube isn't strong enough, we meant that the 2.0 output doesn't put out enough ultra violet rays to be beneficial at all. The Repti-Glo 8.0 is pretty decent as well as the Repti-Sun 5.0 but the best tube in the U.S. is the Repti-Sun 10.0. There have been some problems with the Repti-Glo 10.0 so please stay away from that bulb. This bulb can be found in the UK and is a very good bulb as beardie parents mentioned: http://www.petspantry.tv/acatalog/reptile-heat-lamps.html but, again, make sure you get the tube rather than the compact. Also wanted to mention that the tube UVB's need to be replaced in about 5 to 6 months as that's when they decline. It's fine to have the UVB along the back, just make sure that the basking light is also near it so that your beardie can get the benefits of both bulbs while he is basking.

I checked the millimeter size of the tank and since it is 380 x 380 x 750 ml, in inches it is 15 x 15 x 30 so it wouldn't be big enough for a mercury vapor bulb as you should have a minimum of a 40 gallon tank which would measure about 914 x 457 x 457 in millimeters.

Please let us know how he is on Monday and we all hope you have good news to share.

Hello,

Yes, the Arcadia D3 12% is a great bulb, so try to get the flourescent tube bulb. It is actually just a tad stronger than the Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb here in the US.
Let us know how things are going.
Good, let us know the medication. The Baytril, try to find out the concentration of it for me too, thanks. I hope he is feeling better.

Tracie

Hello everyone, well I brought Spike home today!! He was looking quite lethargic and sickly yellow but as soon as I put him under the new Reptisun 5.0 in his new vivarium, he changed colour in about 2 minutes! He basked and basked for ages, pulling his neck out. His eyes are so much better, not watery anymore. After a while he started to move around so I offered a small locust which he ate but couldnt quite manage another one, i guess they re just too energetic for him still. I bought some mealworms (not the fatty kind) and offered him some too, he ate about 15 in the space of 20 minutes!! I was so pleased and relieved, as you can imagine. Then it occured to me that perhaps he hadnt had a drink for a while so with a little pipette i droped a little bit on his nose and then he drank loads, which made him poo almost immediately. There was a slight gelatinous substance (poss. residue from the meds?) but otherwise normal half dark half white. After that he ate some more worms with salad and is now lying contentedly on the cool side on his log. Is it too early to say that he's on his way to recovery? I realise beardies are slow to heal. We ve been asked to go back to the vet on Wednesday but Im not too keen on him getting more antibiotics and injection, whats your advice on that? Im also not too confident with the temperature, at the moment his vivarium is about 35 to 36 C but the thermometer was right next to the heat lamp (put an ordinary 60watt reflector light instead of the red one). Then it went down to 34 on the cool side. Its hard to gage what the real temp is and what shows on the thermometer doesnt always match up with the thermostat dial. Also, my uv light is not on a timer as one time i realize it wasnt switching off when supposed to? Should Spike be getting extra uv light while he's recovering? I turn the lights when I come down for breakfast which is about 8am and switch them off about half eleven. The healthy female beardie seem quite content with that, she snuggles up in the sand, makes her little nest and then falls asleep (very cute to watch). In any case, I feel so much more confident now that i am armed with all your very useful advice, and I think Im gonna be able to sleep tonight at last! Thank you Thank you a thousand time, will keep you posted of his progress.

Kind regards

Flora

PS ive not been able to find out the dosages of the injections/meds, they seem to be quite reticent at the surgery in parting with that kind of information, (perhaps its a UK thing) but will try again on Wednesday

I am so glad your beardie is doing better!

Spike's progress/ Hello again, well Spike has been eating quite a lot of mealworms since Monday, on average about 15 to 20 a day, but not interested in salad or veg. He seems a bit more active and inquisitive too but his colouring seems to be changing quite a lot. He had a small normal poo last night but today his poo was very black runny and gelatinous. Is anyone familiar with these symptoms? We re back at the vet this evening for a last check up so will ask him about that. Many thanks in advance

Flora