Swollen Beardie hand!

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Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby LadyJ66 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:55 am

Hi everyone!, I'm no stranger to taking care of animals but this is my first time caring for a bearded dragon. He or She is around 3 months old? ( yeah I haven't sexed it yet, I do know how but still to small for me to tell), I had it for about a month now, I just call it beardie until I know the sex to give a proper name :). Now that my beardie is shedding I noticed a swollen hand and I DON'T think its retained shed, the hand is double the size of the normal hand. It's been eating well, I have no idea what the issue is
husbandry:
10 gal tank, 20 gal was over kill on a 4 inch beardie. beardie is now 6.25 inches
60 watt UVA flukers bulb for heat, I know that sounds low but when I had a higher bulb the tank was going over 120 degrees, It stays pretty hot in my apartment.
15 watt repti-sun 10.0 mini compact florescent for desert animals, both bulbs are 10-12 inches from basking spot
temperature range: hot side 90-110 degrees, cool side 80-85 degrees
decor: driftwood log, wood hut hide, reptile carpet, water dish and just now added a pieces of fleece to relieve pressure at night, beardie loves it. (fleece was not in the tank prior to swelling)
2 digital thermometers, one measures temperature and humidity on cool side, the other measures temperature on basking side
food: crickets dusted with repti cal calcium w/ vitamin D3 and herptivite multivitamin, I tried dubias, wax worms, phoenix worms....wont touch em. still too small for meal worms and butter worms. I've gotten beardie to eat mango and bell pepper a couple times. crickets are gut loaded with cricket feed containing vitamins and minerals added and cricket drink with extra calcium added
at night I don't use heating, it stays between 70-75 degrees in my room which is warmer than a desert which can drop to 50 degrees. at 6am the light goes on at 7-8pm it goes off, depends on when beardie had the last cricket, I wait an hour minimum before turning it off if a cricket was eaten late.

Image (set up: temperature was still rising when i took the pics, its reading 109 degrees right now at the hot side, 83 on the cool side 42% humidity)

Image (swollen hand)
Last edited by LadyJ66 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby KarrieRee » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:01 am

I cant see his hand and I am going to let the experts weigh in on that but............... the UVB needs to be replaced w/ this
Which UVB light should I use?
The best UVB light is a ReptiSun 10.0 fluorescent tube HO (Or Arcardia 12% in the UK). Compact or coil bulbs do not emit the proper amount of UVB light for a bearded dragon, and should not be used. Other brands, such as the Zilla Desert Series and ReptiGlo have been known to cause eye problems and other health issues with bearded dragons, and should be avoided. The reason that some UVB lights (Zilla, ReptiGlo, coils/compacts, ect.) are considered dangerous is because the wavelength of UVB that they emit is shorter and more intense than the wavelength of the "safe" lights (ReptiSun, Arcadia).
UVB lights should be replaced every 6 months. The T5’s are a strong bulb and only need to be replaced once a year – the T 8 every 6 months--- where as the T 8 are not as strong—they need to be placed inside the tank the T 5 10.0 bulb approx 10-11 inches from basking spot – the T 8 approx 8-10 inches from basking spot—the cover needs to be off the bulb for full effect of the UVB rays-- that I would get ASAP---
the next thing is that little tank you have him in isnt gonna last long-- I would consider upgrading to either a 40 gallon long or jump right to what your going to need by the time hes a year 75-120 gallon -- you can always section off but hes gonna need it to get to his potential growth--- also I would invest in a IR heat gun-- they can be bought at Home Depot Lowes or Walmart for around $10-- that is going to give accurate basking temps--- and I can see why the difficult w/ the heat thing - tank is so small --- so can you post a pic of his hand please?
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby LadyJ66 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:22 am

Hi Karrie, so far you've told me nothing I didn't already know. I can't use a tube light on this small tank since I can't get a fixture for it that fits, that's why I'm using the compact florescent, which does emit the proper amount for a bearded dragon in a small tank. It is a HO florescent for desert animals, I have not had eye issues with it. Beardie is still too small to transfer to a 40 gal breeder which I intend to have a repti-sun HO tube in. I should note, this is not Beardies first shed with me, this is the first shed where I'm noticing issues though. here are more pictures

Image *normal side*

Image *swollen side*

Image *now you can see it well*

Image *beardie back*
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby LadyJ66 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:37 pm

I just adjusted my lamps, UVB lamp is now 10" above the driftwood, UVA is 9inches above the driftwood, temperature is about 110 degrees on hot side, 83 degrees on cool side, 41% humidity

- I'm starting to suspect a fracture, Beardie does try to jump out the enclosure from time to time. I noticed a darkened area on the wrist of the swollen hand while Beardie was soaking. It's probably a bruise.
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby Drache613 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:39 pm

Hello,

I can definitely see the swelling on the left hand/wrist area. Is the left foot/ankle swollen too,
or is it just the angle of the picture?
Karrie is correct though. While technically the compact/coil lights may emit UVB, the quality
is not very good. The UVB wavelength spikes up & down & isn't good enough quality to help
the dragon synthesize D3 which can in turn contribute to weakening of the bones. Since he is
young & growing, his body uses up & lays down calcium so if he isn't able to properly absorb
enough calcium from too weak of UVB then he will be more prone to fractures & other health
issues.
Are you giving plenty of calcium for him?

Tracie
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby kingofnobbys » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:51 pm

Unlike the others : I've noticed he's currently in / or at the end of shed , please confirm.

If he's in shed or near the end of a shed , the swelling may be shedding on the "swollen" hand.
This should come off of it's own account in the next few days. You can assist by giving him a soak in some very shallow luke warm water (about 32 degC) for maybe 5 or 10 mins.

If it still doesn't come off I suggest a vet take a look as adherent shed on a limb , tail or digit can become very tight and obstruct blood flow and cause serious issues. A reptile vet should be able remove or loosen the glove of old skin using a special tool very quickly.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby kingofnobbys » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:58 pm

LadyJ66 wrote:Hi everyone!, I'm no stranger to taking care of animals but this is my first time caring for a bearded dragon. He or She is around 3 months old? ( yeah I haven't sexed it yet, I do know how but still to small for me to tell), I had it for about a month now, I just call it beardie until I know the sex to give a proper name :). Now that my beardie is shedding I noticed a swollen hand and I DON'T think its retained shed, the hand is double the size of the normal hand. It's been eating well, I have no idea what the issue is
husbandry:
10 gal tank, 20 gal was over kill on a 4 inch beardie. beardie is now 6.25 inches
60 watt UVA flukers bulb for heat, I know that sounds low but when I had a higher bulb the tank was going over 120 degrees, It stays pretty hot in my apartment.
15 watt repti-sun 10.0 mini compact florescent for desert animals, both bulbs are 10-12 inches from basking spot

<<< I suggest replacement of the 15W Reptisun 10 mini with a 26W UVB200. This is a much stronger compact UV and will do him for the next 4 - 6 months until he outgrows the little rearing tank.
The main issue with a 15W compact 10 is it's very low UV output, the dragon will have to get VERY CLOSE to it to get ENOUGH UVA & UVB , the quality of the UV spectrum from Exo Terra , Zoo Med and Arcadia compacts is fine.
see this for more details : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611

I recommend he be able to bask about 8 inches from the 26W UVB200 provided it's in a reflector dome or nano style reflector hood and there is NO MESH UNDER IT.
If it has to go ontop a mesh lid , this will block 50% of the UV , so this distance will become 4" to 5" max.
temperature range: hot side 90-110 degrees,
<<< no hotter than 100 F please.

cool side 80-85 degrees
decor: driftwood log, wood hut hide, reptile carpet, water dish and just now added a pieces of fleece to relieve pressure at night, beardie loves it. (fleece was not in the tank prior to swelling)
2 digital thermometers, one measures temperature and humidity on cool side, the other measures temperature on basking side
food: crickets dusted with repti cal calcium w/ vitamin D3 and herptivite multivitamin, I tried dubias, wax worms, phoenix worms....wont touch em. still too small for meal worms and butter worms.
>>> this will help you regards getting phoenix worms (BSFL) into him by assist feeding.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=249501

Once he gets a taste of their insides he'll like them, but generally they are not very appealing tasting to lizards on the outside (and often smell odd too).
The LARGE white coloured very wriggly BSFL are much more tasty and softer to chew for the hatchling , when they turn dark coloured (still wriggling their outsides are tougher to chew), the pupa are fine to give too but most lizards don't recognize these as edible, the flies are winner with hungry hatchlings (being slow moving and a little buzzy)


commercial cricket foods are a waste of money and are off very dubious benefit ,
a better approach is to feed the crickets some DRY RepCal Adult Bearded Dragon Pellets and some fresh carrot chunks (hydrates them too) and to give high calcium fresh leafy greens to gutload the crickets.


I've gotten beardie to eat mango and bell pepper a couple times. crickets are gut loaded with cricket feed containing vitamins and minerals added and cricket drink with extra calcium added
at night I don't use heating, it stays between 70-75 degrees in my room which is warmer than a desert which can drop to 50 degrees. at 6am the light goes on at 7-8pm it goes off, depends on when beardie had the last cricket, I wait an hour minimum before turning it off if a cricket was eaten late.

Image (set up: temperature was still rising when i took the pics, its reading 109 degrees right now at the hot side, 83 on the cool side 42% humidity)

Image (swollen hand)
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby Drache613 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:01 pm

Hello,

I did notice possible shedding, which is why I asked if the other foot/ankle on the same side
was swollen...

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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby LadyJ66 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:55 am

I think in the case of his ankle it is shedding, beardie does have shed stuck to it. The left hand...different story. There's no shed that I could see and it hurts him/her. If it's injury that will take a few weeks to heal, not much I can do about it other than give anti-inflammatory, pain killers, etc. until it heals. He/she is still active considering the heavy amounts of shedding, eating normally...beardies looking at me now wanting breakfast, lol.

I don't think its my lighting, if it were I would be having a bunch of other issues as well. It may be my first time raising a reptile but I did do my research. I've herd more praise for this particular compact bulb than complaints which is why I chose it. In a couple months before the bulb even needs to be changed Beardie should be ready for a 40 gal tank with a long tub light. If Beardie weren't getting sufficient UVB, there would be signs of lethargy, jittery limbs, lack of appetite, constipation, (I am aware these are also signs of MBD, still the same cause though, lack of UVB). Beardie is alert, attentive, active, with a healthy appetite and healthy stool. (he/she poops every day). Beardie did come from a private owned pet shop instead of a breeder. Beardie was skinny and very small and dehydrated when I got him. Since I got him hes put on weight, grown quite a bit and is hydrated. he was fine until a couple days ago, swollen hand, and swollen ankle, but the ankle is only a little swollen so I'm sure that's just shedding. whats concerning me is his hand, he probably hurt it trying to jump out.
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby vrenee1018 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:51 am

I would take him to a vet then, since you are so concerned about his/her little hand.

While we do understand that you've done research and that is wonderful, please understand that not all beardies react the same or show the same signs/symptoms of things that are wrong with them. You will begin to understand that little beardie will show you in his/her own way that something is wrong with him/her and that is something to pay very close attention to since they are master of disguises when it comes to sickness and things of the like that are wrong with them. Do not assume you can give a prognosis or diagnosis without proper consultation with a good vet or even veteran beardie owners on this site. We all want you and your beardie to succeed! And beardie is a cute little bugger. Going to grow big and fast and have plenty of personality to boot! :blob8:
Image Ohhh myyy little Taaam-piiico <3
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby claudiusx » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:01 am

LadyJ66 wrote:I don't think its my lighting, if it were I would be having a bunch of other issues as well. If Beardie weren't getting sufficient UVB, there would be signs of lethargy, jittery limbs, lack of appetite, constipation, (I am aware these are also signs of MBD, still the same cause though, lack of UVB).

Not Necessarily. Improper uvb can cause a multitude of issues, and it doesn't have to cause all of them. It can cause one, or two, or no symptoms.

In this case, it's pretty clear that the hand is swollen, and that it isn't just shed. But I think you know that already, i'm just reaffirming it since another brought it up for some reason.

In a dragon that young, there is really only one thing that could have caused that because you wouldn't expect gout in such a young dragon.
I would guess some sort of trauma, possibly a fracture. And that can relate back to improper uvb. I won't harp you on the benefits or negatives of uvb because you have stated you've done your research on the subject. I will add though that a lot of us have been here for years, and have taken care of dragons for decades, and have seen thousands of cases of issues with dragons. There is a reason we suggest against the CFL bulbs.

Would the trauma/fracture not have happened if you had a better bulb? No one can say, and I won't pretend to act like I know. But we do know from experience that it didn't do you any favors.

You are right though, pretty much all you can do is let it heal and hope it doesn't bother him too much. But I would suggest giving him the best chances possible and that would involve upgrading your lighting sooner rather than later.

Just my 2 cents. :)
I hope your little guy feels better.

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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby kingofnobbys » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:27 am

LadyJ66 wrote:I think in the case of his ankle it is shedding, beardie does have shed stuck to it. The left hand...different story. There's no shed that I could see and it hurts him/her. If it's injury that will take a few weeks to heal, not much I can do about it other than give anti-inflammatory, pain killers, etc. until it heals. He/she is still active considering the heavy amounts of shedding, eating normally...beardies looking at me now wanting breakfast, lol.

I don't think its my lighting, if it were I would be having a bunch of other issues as well. It may be my first time raising a reptile but I did do my research. I've herd more praise for this particular compact bulb than complaints which is why I chose it. In a couple months before the bulb even needs to be changed Beardie should be ready for a 40 gal tank with a long tub light. If Beardie weren't getting sufficient UVB, there would be signs of lethargy, jittery limbs, lack of appetite, constipation, (I am aware these are also signs of MBD, still the same cause though, lack of UVB). Beardie is alert, attentive, active, with a healthy appetite and healthy stool. (he/she poops every day). Beardie did come from a private owned pet shop instead of a breeder. Beardie was skinny and very small and dehydrated when I got him. Since I got him hes put on weight, grown quite a bit and is hydrated. he was fine until a couple days ago, swollen hand, and swollen ankle, but the ankle is only a little swollen so I'm sure that's just shedding. whats concerning me is his hand, he probably hurt it trying to jump out.


UVB has no effect on appetite , activity , digestion.

UVA is the band that has an effection on these.

13W 5%UVB or 10%UVBcompact is NOT ADEQUATE for a bearded dragon hatchling who needs much more UVA & UVB than a 15W 5%UVB or 10%UVB compact even in reflector dome or reflector hood can ever supply.
Your dragon would literally have to curl up around a 13W 5%UVB or 10%UVB compact to get enough UV. The globes don't get that scorchingly hot, I have removed them by hand within seconds of turning them off (they get very warm, but not uncomfortably so.) Linear T8 and T5HO tubes are not very hot either as anyone who has changed out a flickering domestic T8 or T5HO tube can attest.

Clarify :
is this 13W 5.0UVB or 10%UVB compact globe ? and you made a typo ?
checking back
15 watt repti-sun 10.0 mini compact
from OP ==> a T5 tube (?) .

"compact" used in this description caused some confusion on what exactly you have. Your photos don't seem to show any T5ho tubes , just two globes.

If it's a Zoo Med Reptisun 10.0 T5ho UVB Lamp 15W ? ( I think the 15W version is 12" long ).
…. it's fine provided the dragon can get inside 11 inches and it's mounted under the lid in reflector hood.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:35 pm, edited 12 times in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby claudiusx » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:33 am

kingofnobbys wrote:UVB has no effect on appetite , activity , digestion.

Completely, false. UVB plays a large role in those items. While not maybe directly, definitely indirectly.



kingofnobbys wrote:Your dragon would literally have to curl up around a 15W 5%UVB compact to get enough UV.

Completely wrong again. a reptisun 5.0 CFL has a UVI of 25 at just 2 inches away. A dragon would literally fry if it was wrapped up around one. No need for scare tactics to push an agenda. While I agree they aren't suitable, we get no where as a community by lying about them. Their issue is their short harsh wavelength one that also dissipates very quickly as it moves away from the bulb. Along with the fact that their uvb output quickly diminishes over time when compared to other options.

Image

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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby kingofnobbys » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 am

If you strongly suspect he's injured himself
>> most like physical causes are mesh hammocks --- they get their curled nails snagged and can't unsnag themselves easily especially if more than one is snagged
>> an awkward landing when leaping or hitting a glass wall hard
>> an awkward landing from an accidential fall onto something hard and unforgiving
>> something in the tank that's hard and heavy fell on the limp

This is why we ask for more information.

If the bone density is poor (early stage MBD) , they are more prone to broken bones in the above than they would otherwise be.

If you are lucky , the injury is a soft tissue trauma of some kind , sprain, strain or dislocation.

Being so small , a broken bone in the arm will be not be able to be reset , the vet is likely just to immobilize and brace the limb for several weeks to prevent further damage and allow it grow and heal. In a healthy hatchling, with good levels of Ca and VitD3 (via UVB) , have very plastic bones cf adult dragons.

Sprains and strains typically resolve themselves in a few days.
A dislocation - maybe a vet can reduce it and then immobilize and brace it to allow healing.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
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Re: Swollen Beardie hand!

Postby Drache613 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:56 pm

Hello,

Reptiles are indeed hard to figure out sometimes!
They are complex creatures! Many times it takes awhile for them to show external signs of
illness such as metabolic bone disease. A lot of it depends on genetics but overall, they do
have specific needs in which have to be met to maintain a minimum level of health at best.
Low calcium levels can be maintained for awhile before any type of physical signs are seen.
Only when the bones begin to be leached is when they start to show muscular weakness or
strange twitches.
I hope he is feeling better soon!

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