Please read.

We are a first time beardie owner. No other pets as 4yo daughter is very allergic to cats and dogs. She loves bugs and frogs and lizards. So after much reading on allergies and reptiles I decided to take her to petsmart to let the beardie crawl all over her. We brought home a cool little baby that jumped right into her hand from the display and was very active. This little big headed guy was about 5-6 inches when we brought him home April 28th and now is a bit over 9 inches and is 35g. He has been given the best. We currently have 4 differently habitats, 1- 42x24x36 main indoor custom from old rustic tv hutch. 2- 150 gallon rubbermaid trough for sunbathing while we are outside. 3- 10 gallon feeding area/ thunderdome and then 4- 24x24x36 terrarium in the LR for when we need to secure him briefly while socializing with us. There are 7 of us. We minimize handling somewhat due to his age but still want him used to our routines and activity level.

I realize that's alot of movement but it's not a constant thing. For the most part he stays in one place when not bathing or hanging out on my shoulder.

From week 2 this baby has had dubia and crickets. Week 1 was a mix of small crickets and 1-5 mealworms. We quickly decided feeder roaches would be best. He would eat 30-40 1/4" crickets or roaches per day.
Then one day we turned his lights on and he didn't meet me at the door for his meal. Upon further inspection of him I realized he was crawling low and slow on his belly as well as shaking his hand when he walked. Then I realized his entire front left hand/foot from the ankle/wrist was swollen like a ballon. Up until this day anytime I approached his cage he would come to me, probably awaiting food. He would even climb into our hands just as he did at the store. He was very very active and quick to investigate.


For lighting we have arcadia 12% t5 , 6400k t5, and a powersun 100 uvb for his basking spot. All areas have reptile carpet.
I was using calcium with d3 but have switched between no calcium and occasionally calcium without d3.

I took him to Forest Trails vet in Tulsa since the owner was highly recommended. Very first words out of her mouth were "he's beautiful and it looks like gout." WTH!? Took x-rays to rule out MBD, I have copies. Vet said bone density is great and other than swelling he seems to be thriving. She sent me home with meloxicam for 3 days. No change.
On my own I figured out I could be dusting too much. I had noticed his urates were bright white and getting almost chalky when fresh. He used to drink from his water dish the first day or so but that has since ceased. Since coming home he has been given daily soaks simply to get him used to the routine but also hydrate him. He has never drank from his bath however.

On my own I decided to remove calcium and started giving black cherry extract and feeding silkworms. The vet has no idea and now will not even return my calls. I'm reluctant to spend anymore time or money with a vet if it's all just guess work anyway. She admitted she had no idea what it could be and he is too small for bloodwork or I would have had that done. For me, data is everything. So if we could see his calcium levels, uric acid, etc we could at least make an educated guess vs. throwing meds at something. The vets last word was that she took everything to the owner 30+ years vet plus reptile owner himself and he agreed with me to remove calcium for a few days then start back without d3.

Skipped 3 days of calcium then gave 1 tiny dusting since my CA w/o d3 hadn't arrived. Now here we are 4 days later and he is swelling in all feet and legs now. Thing is the day before I gave the minute amount of Ca w/d3 he was dramatically better. More movement and holding himself up when walking, not quite himself, but better.

I sent petsmart corporate a scathing letter. I am pretty pissed that we spent x amount of dollars with them for a supposed product and result and received a reptile with what seems to be genetically predisposed to organ failure. They contacted us and refunded our money and told us consider it an adoption. Gee, thanks.

Not to be a terrible person but what to do? He still eats, not near as much, but does eat. For fruits and veggies he likes kale, grapes, carrots. Currently available feeders are crickets, dubia, bsfl, mealworms, and silkworms.

The arcadia lights are placed using a solarmeter 6.2 to offer gradients from 0-300uw. The basking spot temp is 105-107f, cool side is 85-88f warm side is 95-99f. Temps are checked with an amprobe infrared temp gun.

We feel a bit robbed. Our whole intent was to give the very best we could and that by the time he/she was 6-8 months old then our 4 yo would be able to be more hands-on. So far we are spending all our time explaining why he's not moving or why he's crawling around on his belly and how he may not be with us very long.

I realize also that some of my statements and expectations seem selfish and childish. My stance is this, we are a large, busy, active family. My wife and I both have very stressful careers. She at the usps and myself as a telecom technician. We do not have time daily to medicate a pet for life. I'm sorry to say that but I'm just being honest. Feeding, watering, cleaning, building, research... we are all over that. But being life support for some corporations failed breeding program that leaves it's customers holding the bag?..... We're out.

I'm sure I'm going to get attacked or whatever. Please refrain, I will ignore. If you have suggestions I'm all ears.

Thank you.

I am not going to pretend that I know what's wrong with your little buddy but, it seems as though his protein and calcium levels are out of wack.
Try not dusting his bugs at all for a while again a see if there is any improvement. Also cut back a little on the amount of bugs per day. The bugs are where he gets his protein and, with the Acadia 12% UVB the need for d3 supplements is at best minimal.
I would like to see a pic of his setup if could. Sometimes it is easier to see a problem if there is one, which is doubtful but it helps us help your dragon.
I truly want your buddy to live a long happy and, healthy life. Please dont give up on him.

Hello,

Poor guy, definitely if you can, post some pictures of him & of your setup just so we can see it all.
Your UVB sounds perfectly fine though.
How many insects does he eat weekly, estimated?
He is receiving adequate UVB so he wont need any D3 at all. I agree, try leaving the calcium completely out for a week or two in order to allow sufficient time for his system to flush it all out.
You could even blend up a greens slurry made of parsley, cilantro & kale to help detoxify & bind excess calcium & D3. That may help with the swelling & do keep giving the black cherry also, it will help out.
He is too young & small for a blood test thus far, unfortunately.
Hopefully this will work itself out.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Hi there, sorry to hear about your poor baby. Please post pics ASAP, that can be helpful. How close is the uvb to her ? One thing to do ASAP is get the cool side temp. down to 80.

One thing that I have been thinking is leading to gout is the feeding of high protein large amounts of bugs and lack of hydration. Has he drank for you at all, I know he didn't drink in the bath, most babies don't, and they can be quite shocked when first given a bath. I never bathed the babies I raised unless they were dirty. ?

I've raised loads of babies + used to attend many reptile shows and never heard of so many instances of gout until the past couple of years. We all used to spray the babies daily for hydration, never had these problems. Here's how to post pics :

https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload pics

But please answer about how he drinks or doesn't drink, that may be very helpful.

Gormagon":u2kce291 said:

I am not going to pretend that I know what's wrong with your little buddy but, it seems as though his protein and calcium levels are out of wack.
Try not dusting his bugs at all for a while again a see if there is any improvement. Also cut back a little on the amount of bugs per day. The bugs are where he gets his protein and, with the Acadia 12% UVB the need for d3 supplements is at best minimal.
I would like to see a pic of his setup if could. Sometimes it is easier to see a problem if there is one, which is doubtful but it helps us help your dragon.
I truly want your buddy to live a long happy and, healthy life. Please dont give up on him.

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He has cut himself back dramatically on feeding. He was waking to a fresh bowl of various greens, every morning he would meet me at the door and would take 1-5 bites of whatever was to his liking. We've offered collared greens, mustard greens, kale, bok choi, endives, grapes, blueberries, cilantro, asparagas, strawberries, cantaloupe. He lives around and then starts tearing what he wants. Then about noon I would throw in 20 cickets or dubia and let him go at it until he slowed down or 15 minutes whichever came first. Then again with the bugs at 5-5:30. Lights out 9:00 he would socialize everyday from about 7-9 and on the weekends he spends his time wherever I happen to be unless we are away. Do ypu think the BSFL with its calcium levels would need to be excluded also? What I'm reading about them points towards them being a very healthy feeder but with his calcium in question... That's what pisses me off the most. He's a little guy, and w/o bloodwork it's all just a guessing game.

Drache613":bptrmgg0 said:

Hello,

Poor guy, definitely if you can, post some pictures of him & of your setup just so we can see it all.
Your UVB sounds perfectly fine though.
How many insects does he eat weekly, estimated?
He is receiving adequate UVB so he wont need any D3 at all. I agree, try leaving the calcium completely out for a week or two in order to allow sufficient time for his system to flush it all out.
You could even blend up a greens slurry made of parsley, cilantro & kale to help detoxify & bind excess calcium & D3. That may help with the swelling & do keep giving the black cherry also, it will help out.
He is too young & small for a blood test thus far, unfortunately.
Hopefully this will work itself out.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

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It's all relative. I am showing 87 wk1, 127 wk2, he got up to 200 crickets a week and when I was able to completely switch to dubia that number was lower and at his high point he ate 150 dubia + 40 crickets the week before his 1st known issue. He has eaten some form of greens since wk 2. Notugh but he does eat. As a matter of fact he just ate about 4 big bites of cilantro and kale while I sat here after giving him his morning mixture of .3ml of black cherrie and bottled water then .15ml of water and pedialyte. He drinks readily from the tip of the syringe.
Sure wish we could do a bloodtest.

I'm very sorry this is happening to you guys, this sounds like a tricky one but I think a positive outcome is very, very possible if we can help you figure it out soon, as he's still very young and strong. His size sounds fairly normal for a 3-4 month old, maybe a bit on the small side, but as already stated a photo of him and his main enclosure would be helpful if you could post them.

It does sound very much like gout, which as mentioned is unfortunately becoming extremely common. I know your first instinct is to blame PetSmart, but in all honesty it doesn't seem to matter where the beardie comes from lately, gout is showing up in Beardies everywhere, from Petco and PetSmart to small, private pet shops, to private breeders who are very reputable. The swelling combined with the lethargy certainly points that way. There's a fine line at his age balancing his protein and calcium. He's doing his most aggressive growing right now so he needs protein and obviously calcium (though as already stated with the 12% Arcadia you don't need D3). I don't think I would stop the Phoenix worms because they are a great staple and they provide all the calcium he needs plus some hydration. Obviously you don't need to dust them at all, I swear by them and have had no issues at all. Yes if it's gout you'll want to lower his protein intake, but as I stated it's a fine line right now because he's growing and needs protein. But the Phoenix worms with no dusting are a good choice in my opinion (sorry, I call them Phoenix worms instead of BSFL).

I know he's too small for a blood test, hopefully that will change soon as he's growing, but has anyone mentioned to you trying to treat him as he has gout and ruling it in or out based on the outcome? Allopurinol is the standard gout treatment, it's inexpensive, and you tend to see results very quickly. Using the Metacam to treat his pain and swelling is good, but if he actually has gout and you put him on the Allopurinol, you should see the swelling decrease and see his activity levels rise pretty directly (along with continuing the black cherry juice and/or the serrapeptase, either in supplement form or through feeding silkworms, which are also a great feeder). Just a thought, something to try since you can't get blood work done just yet.

Also, as mentioned get your cool side temperature down between 75-80, that way he has the correct gradient and a place to go and cool down, as the heat can also cause lethargy. Your other temps sound good.

EllenD":pf1kt1e8 said:

I'm very sorry this is happening to you guys, this sounds like a tricky one but I think a positive outcome is very, very possible if we can help you figure it out soon, as he's still very young and strong. His size sounds fairly normal for a 3-4 month old, maybe a bit on the small side, but as already stated a photo of him and his main enclosure would be helpful if you could post them.

It does sound very much like gout, which as mentioned is unfortunately becoming extremely common. I know your first instinct is to blame PetSmart, but in all honesty it doesn't seem to matter where the beardie comes from lately, gout is showing up in Beardies everywhere, from Petco and PetSmart to small, private pet shops, to private breeders who are very reputable. The swelling combined with the lethargy certainly points that way. There's a fine line at his age balancing his protein and calcium. He's doing his most aggressive growing right now so he needs protein and obviously calcium (though as already stated with the 12% Arcadia you don't need D3). I don't think I would stop the Phoenix worms because they are a great staple and they provide all the calcium he needs plus some hydration. Obviously you don't need to dust them at all, I swear by them and have had no issues at all. Yes if it's gout you'll want to lower his protein intake, but as I stated it's a fine line right now because he's growing and needs protein. But the Phoenix worms with no dusting are a good choice in my opinion (sorry, I call them Phoenix worms instead of BSFL).

I know he's too small for a blood test, hopefully that will change soon as he's growing, but has anyone mentioned to you trying to treat him as he has gout and ruling it in or out based on the outcome? Allopurinol is the standard gout treatment, it's inexpensive, and you tend to see results very quickly. Using the Metacam to treat his pain and swelling is good, but if he actually has gout and you put him on the Allopurinol, you should see the swelling decrease and see his activity levels rise pretty directly (along with continuing the black cherry juice and/or the serrapeptase, either in supplement form or through feeding silkworms, which are also a great feeder). Just a thought, something to try since you can't get blood work done just yet.

Also, as mentioned get your cool side temperature down between 75-80, that way he has the correct gradient and a place to go and cool down, as the heat can also cause lethargy. Your other temps sound good.

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The vet mentioned gout right away. She did not however discuss treatment for it. She assumed it was a sprain. And said call and let us know how it goes. I called with news of other limbs swelling Monday and haven't heard anything back yet. She said he was too small for bloodwork and to test the fluid in his wrist may cause further complications. I removed a second bulb from his main enclosure and now the average temp is 74-81f for the cool side. I gave him a dish full of small 3(30ct)1/4" and under Phoenix worms and he scared those down then I was going to see if he wanted any silkworms and he literally snatched 2 of the 3 out of my hand that were stuck together after already eating one I hand fed him. His original swelling in his left front wrist/ankle has never really gone down, the fibers and hand have but there is a protrusion on the inside of his wrist/ankle. He doesn't shake it or favor it anymore. And his other limbs swelling seems to disappear with a warm bath and overnight. It's almost like he has an allergy lol. Poor guy/girl.
I have both Phoenix and bsfl the difference is a name right? I ordered both and saw no difference from Phoenix worms name brand to bsfl from Texas A&M other than the small size for Phoenix should be advertised as extra small. Some are no larger than 1/8th inch and I order 2 100 CT and they came in tubs labeled 150 CT with 30 in each tub... epic fail.

I will get pics. As stated stressful jobs as typing this I got called in to work someone else's call out 1hr away. There goes fathers day weekend.

I'm so sorry that this is happening....you guys were going above + beyond to create a home where your beardie could really thrive.

I think that the culprits are a mixture of a few things.....the dubia roaches being too much protein, the very high temps. + lack of oral hydration, as well as possibly too much calcium before you altered the amount.

Reptile expert Allen Repashy wrote an interesting article about dubia roachs, they do not excrete uric acid so it stays in their bodies + then in to whatever eats them. Dubia roaches need a very low protein diet, [ should be fed mostly veggies ] but if kept on a higher protein diet they then store way too much uric acid. This can affect the animals that eat them. Here's the link to the article:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiQnc6UtcXUAhVLRSYKHbtwBC8QFgg6MAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.store.repashy.com%2Fcan-feeder-insect-diets-contribute-to-gout-in-reptiles.html&usg=AFQjCNH5eIBg0W68OvwWgXcVt19OLQIIyA&sig2=7Cbf36MdnrEbgD0EWxOSMw

Try to offer water dripped or sprayed on your baby's snout. Take your time, drip, stop, repeat until he [ hopefully ] drinks. Hydration is extremely important to babies and it should come from more than just their food. Hopefully your baby can be helped, but gout is very stubborn.

AHBD":3l8l16ei said:

I'm so sorry that this is happening....you guys were going above + beyond to create a home where your beardie could really thrive.

I think that the culprits are a mixture of a few things.....the dubia roaches being too much protein, the very high temps. + lack of oral hydration, as well as possibly too much calcium before you altered the amount.

Reptile expert Allen Repashy wrote an interesting article about dubia roachs, they do not excrete uric acid so it stays in their bodies + then in to whatever eats them. Dubia roaches need a very low protein diet, [ should be fed mostly veggies ] but if kept on a higher protein diet they then store way too much uric acid. This can affect the animals that eat them. Here's the link to the article:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiQnc6UtcXUAhVLRSYKHbtwBC8QFgg6MAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.store.repashy.com%2Fcan-feeder-insect-diets-contribute-to-gout-in-reptiles.html&usg=AFQjCNH5eIBg0W68OvwWgXcVt19OLQIIyA&sig2=7Cbf36MdnrEbgD0EWxOSMw

Try to offer water dripped or sprayed on your baby's snout. Take your time, drip, stop, repeat until he [ hopefully ] drinks. Hydration is extremely important to babies and it should come from more than just their food. Hopefully your baby can be helped, but gout is very stubborn.

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I do mist daily as well as bath and water, which he/she does lie in. All veggies are soaked in water thoroughly before offering as well. I feel like people are not reading my entire reply. The very same article ypu uave posted a link to I referenced above. We are just going I'm circles here.
At any rate I am at work and can post some pics I have on my phone. If I can figure out the system.

I apologize, I see that you mentioned that he does drink from a syringe....keep that up, he needs plenty of hydration. I didn't see that you referenced the Allen Repashy-dubia -gout article anywhere though, so I just wanted to mention that as a possible/probable factor with the uric acid levels being higher in the dubias. This would'nt be the case with crickets + other bugs.

I'm sorry that you're going through this. I can kid of relate. My son got 2 babies from Petsmart and after a few weeks we discovered one had yellow fungus. We ended up having to buy a second enclosure because the two could not be together anymore, and when I called Petsmart to give them the heads up so they could sterilize their enclosure and notify other people that they may have purchased sick beardies, the managers response was "just return them." I ended up getting in touch with corporate and they also offered to refund all of the money we spent which I declined. The refund felt like "hush money" to me, and getting refunded the money wouldn't make her YF go away. Through this, however, I did learn that you're able to surrender any sick pet purchased at Petsmart back to them and they will take over veterinary care. This was actually confirmed to me by the herp vet that we take our baby to; she said she's treated reptiles from Petsmart many times over the years. Also, I'm not sure if this is standard but it sounded to me like they would have taken over care for our beardie until she was well and then we could have taken her back. That might be an option to look into in your case.

It's super disappointing to think that you're bringing home a pet that can grow up with your kiddos (my son is 5 and was so excited to get his beardies) and then find out that they're not healthy and you have no idea how long you have with them. It's even more frustrating when they're too young for proper diagnosis/treatment (as is the case for us.) I really understand where you're coming from. It sounds like you are very capable and knowledgeable pet parents, and new pets are always a bit of work, but a new sick pet is a whole different ballgame and something no one really plans for. I know that doesn't really help with diagnosis but it might be an option to consider if you're unsure of what else you can do. Good luck

Kimmi0205":1upqjefs said:

I'm sorry that you're going through this. I can kid of relate. My son got 2 babies from Petsmart and after a few weeks we discovered one had yellow fungus. We ended up having to buy a second enclosure because the two could not be together anymore, and when I called Petsmart to give them the heads up so they could sterilize their enclosure and notify other people that they may have purchased sick beardies, the managers response was "just return them." I ended up getting in touch with corporate and they also offered to refund all of the money we spent which I declined. The refund felt like "hush money" to me, and getting refunded the money wouldn't make her YF go away. Through this, however, I did learn that you're able to surrender any sick pet purchased at Petsmart back to them and they will take over veterinary care. This was actually confirmed to me by the herp vet that we take our baby to; she said she's treated reptiles from Petsmart many times over the years. Also, I'm not sure if this is standard but it sounded to me like they would have taken over care for our beardie until she was well and then we could have taken her back. That might be an option to look into in your case.

It's super disappointing to think that you're bringing home a pet that can grow up with your kiddos (my son is 5 and was so excited to get his beardies) and then find out that they're not healthy and you have no idea how long you have with them. It's even more frustrating when they're too young for proper diagnosis/treatment (as is the case for us.) I really understand where you're coming from. It sounds like you are very capable and knowledgeable pet parents, and new pets are always a bit of work, but a new sick pet is a whole different ballgame and something no one really plans for. I know that doesn't really help with diagnosis but it might be an option to consider if you're unsure of what else you can do. Good luck

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He has an appt in OKC with a vet that slightly sedates them and has experience taking a 1/3 of a cc of the 1cc of blodd needed generally for a full panel. He was recommended by the first vet. My wife delivered his/her morning fecal sample for the vet here in Tulsa and she said she did a float and smear and found nothing. That confused me, I figured she would at least find something even if at a low level. I do realize that it could have been a poor submission too. We are well into the 500 dollar range on vet bills, I doubt very seriously with things I've seen so far from Petsmart if they would spend this much time on this type of issue. Basically we are either spending the money to know for sure if he has a lifelong issue or not. It's not like any amount of money takes away the issue at hand. Just doesn't make sense that we've had such a costly issue with a 3-4 month old bearded dragon. We visited a reptile show and saw alot of geckos and bearded dragons and nobody there had ever heard of any of these types of issues. I find it hard to believe that it's just us. All the similar stories I've read here are dragons that are 1yr or more some 4yrs plus. I think I may just go ahead and file that class action lawsuit. Even if it only ties them up for a few years it's worth it. I bet I can find enough like-minded pet owners who have had similar issues with petsmart.
Even if the sole factor was the w/ d3 and too much calcium, those products and advise came from Petsmart trained reptile "experts." The lights, everything. Even the dubia advice and supplier info. How and how many times to feed. It's ridiculous.

I will give this OKC vet a try and see where we are. If it's a lifelong issue then I'll just euthenize. Not going to spend anymore money or time on this.

AHBD":31ecm27l said:

I apologize, I see that you mentioned that he does drink from a syringe....keep that up, he needs plenty of hydration. I didn't see that you referenced the Allen Repashy-dubia -gout article anywhere though, so I just wanted to mention that as a possible/probable factor with the uric acid levels being higher in the dubias. This would'nt be the case with crickets + other bugs.

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No, you're right. I didnt get it posted. But I have read the article you mentioned. This isn't the only place I've unloaded all of this on so it's probably something I thought I got posted before but it didn't post.

I feel really bad for you + your family...... you did so much preparation, I know there was excited anticipation and then such sadness and disappointment. If there's a chance he can recover it would be a real relief for you. If he doesn't recover, I hope that you don't give up on having a beardie [ although it would be understandable ] They do make great little pets if you get one from a trusted breeder, I know some good ones, I've been around this for a long time .