**Mega Ray Issues** / Megaray RECALL

Thanks, Beardie Parents....
Hmm.
I think I'll email T-Rex and see if I can find anything out.

I still have a question mark over the ZooMed Powersuns. When I test them with both the Solarmeter 6.2 and 6.5, I get a very high ratio of UVI:UVB. What that means is that although there may not actually be any abnormally short-wavelength UVB, there is a much higher proportion of the "normal" short-wavelength UVB than in sunlight, or in UVB lamps that have never been reported to cause problems... and quite a few people on this forum, in fact, have reported a strange listlessness and difficult-to-pinpoint "unhappiness" under the Powersuns. I can't be sure whether, scientifically-speaking, this is a significant finding but....

As for the ExoTerra (Hagen) Solar Glo 125 watt, this is a UVB lamp. But ExoTerra seem to change their supplier very frequently, sometimes more than once in a year, and I just can't keep up with the changes.
A couple of years ago, they had a very nice version, with a rounded etched-glass (slightly matt look) face. Then in 2009/10 they changed the glass and although the lamps looked the same, they only had a very low UVB output. But about halfway through last year, people began to report very high UVB readings indeed, a very high UVI:UVB ratio, and I was told the lamps now had a rounded face but the etched-glass was changed to a perfectly smooth, polished glass on the outside with a white coating on the inside. But I have no samples of this one.

I'm sorry this is all so depressing.
I just emailed ReptileUV again to see what's happened to my Solar Raptor-MegaRay samples...

Frances

You can buy the TRex Active at www.creativepet.com if that is what you are looking for.

Good luck with that, Francis. A lot of people, me included, have had trouble getting answers from them. I was one of the lucky ones. I had to email them only 3 or 4 times this last time to get my problem with them resolved.

beardie parents":3m10iz62 said:

They don't have any reptisun 10 tubes but they do carry the reptiglo tubes, which I wouldn't want to buy for obvious reasons

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So what's the problem with Repti-Glo tubes. Been using 10.0s for years without issue. I trust them more than any of these MVBs these days. I just got rid of the garbage sprayed up Mega-Ray that I tried & have been using for a year without health issues, but very little radiated heat for a 160W. Have since gotten hold of some Repti-Sun 10.0 tubes to replace mine as the rest of my Repti-Glo 10.0s expire. But as I said, used them for years without issue.

Frances, is there, has there been a problem with Repti-Glo 10.0 tubes? I know there were issues with the compacts years ago, but was under the understanding that the problems with the Phosphors had been rectified. Thanks in advance.

Germain

Hi, Germain.

That's a very good question, and it's a tricky one to answer... I apologise in advance for a very long post...

I think maybe I need to outline the situation with the ZooMed Reptisun products first. Makes explaining easier...

I've used ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 tubes (made in Germany) with my own dragons at various times. They have a consistently "safer" spectrum, with no "non-terrestrial" UVB, and the UVB spectrum they have is not too dissimilar from sunlight. The UVI:UVB ratio (using 6.5/6.2 meters) is high, which shows there is not a disproportionate amount of shorter-wavelength UVB. (More on this later.)
I have never heard of a case of photo-kerato-conjunctivitis associated with the use of a ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 linear tube... at any distance (although I would not recommend placing any lamp only a few inches from any poor creature's face..all lamps should be overhead, like the sun.)

The situation with the Reptisun 10.0 compact lamps (made in China) is just as you've mentioned in your post. If you've followed the long story about their redesign, on the UVGuideUK website, and discussions on here, you may know that after the problems back in 2006-2008, ZooMed developed compact lamps with a phosphor-and-glass combination that produces a spectrum far more like sunlight in the UVB range ... These were officially "launched" in the spring of 2009, but there were still old-style lamps available in stores in various places for up to a year after that. I'm pretty sure they've all gone now.
I have no concerns about the redesigned compact's spectrum and I have had one on long-term testing over one of my gecko's vivarium, for a full year. However, for completely different reasons - the shape of the beam, which creates a very small "UV zone" with a very steep UV gradient - I don't think any compact lamps are really suitable for bearded dragon set-ups. Given the size and shape of a suitable dragon vivarium - if you're using fluorescent lamps, I reckon only a linear tube would provide enough UV "coverage"...

The situation with ExoTerra ReptiGlo lamps (both linear and compact) is FAR less clear cut.
For one thing, ExoTerra seem to change the specs, or maybe the supplier, of their tubes, compacts and even their mercury vapor lamp surprisingly frequently... every time I am sent samples, they seem to be completely different. For example, in 2009 their compacts, which are the "coil" type, started off the year as fat coils in egg-cup shaped bases and then changed to narrower coils in cylindrical bases...and about halfway through last year, a German colleague sent me data with far, far higher UVB readings from some new compacts so I'm pretty sure they have changed yet again. I can't keep up with these changes. As soon as I complete tests on one type, I'm told something different has appeared...and my test results are then worthless.
ExoTerra compacts and linear tubes have always had very similar spectra to each other. Possibly because they are from the same manufacturer? All are made in China.

I tested two 25 watt, 30-inch T8 linear ExoTerra ReptiGlo tubes in April 2010 and the spectrum of these looks more like the old-style ZooMed Reptisun Compacts than that of the ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 tubes.
Although these tubes emit only very small amounts of non-terrestrial UVB, starting at about 285nm, this spectrum is in theory more hazardous than one with only UVB above 290 - 295nm (like sunlight) and these tubes do have a much higher UV Index than you'd expect given their total UVB output, although nothing like as high as the lamps that caused all the eye and skin problems around 2007.

This next bit is going to be rather technical, but please bear with me.... I don't know a simpler way of describing this.

My Solarmeter 6.2 and 6.5 results showed that 100uW/cm2 from one of these ExoTerra ReptiGlo 10.0 tubes gave me a UV Index of 6.2; the UVI:UVB ratio is about 1:16.
In comparison, natural sunlight has a UVI:UVB ratio between about 1: 50 - 1: 65.
And a ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 tube has a UVI:UVB ratio of about 1:30 (which is typical for several other well tried-and-tested, apparently problem-free brands as well.)

What I have found so far, is that although the ratio is much lower than for sunlight, I have never been told of a case of photo-kerato-conjunctivitis (PKC) with a lamp with a ratio of higher than 1: 20, however close the reptile has been to the lamp.

Lamps with a ratio between about 1: 13 and 1:20 do occasionally seem to be associated with PKC.

But almost all the cases of PKC reported over the last five years have been associated with lamps having a ratio of less than 1 : 13. These include all the old-style Reptisun Compact Lamps, the old-style Zilla Desert 50 series, ZooMed Powersuns and the ReptileUV MegaRays which were in the batches made by Westron in the spring of 2010.
Some of these lamps had ratios as low as 1:6.

I would advise great caution if using any lamp with a UVI:UVB ratio below 1:11 or 12, and some caution if using a lamp with a ratio between 1:13 and 20. (Especially with pale-skinned, thin-skinned, or "albino" morphs, or nocturnal/ crepuscular species of reptile.)
These lamps do have an abnormally high proportion of their output in the shorter UVB wavelengths, compared to sunlight, but this does not necessarily mean it is "non-terrestrial" UVB. It could be UVB between 290 - 300nm, which is found in natural sunlight but only in very small amounts compared to UVB from 300 - 320nm. No UVB is "safe" (which is why we can get sunburned, quite naturally!) but the shorter the wavelength, the more damage it can do in less time.

However there are only a very few reports of photo-kerato-conjunctivitis associated with ExoTerra compact lamps or linear tubes ...and out of the half-dozen or so convincing cases I've collected over five years, (yeah, ok, that's not a lot, but the affected animals did suffer...) most, but not all, occurred when the reptile was able to get very close to the lamp.
I am told that probably because they are so cheap, Exoterra ReptiGlo tubes are the most popular brands on the market, so the incidence of injuries must be very low; the risk cannot be very great.
Personally, though - and everyone is entitled to their own opinion - I choose different brands for my own reptiles.

Hope that helps.

Frances

Thank you, very much Frances, your time & input, as always, is so much appreciated. As I said in my previous post, I have acquired a number of Repti-Sun 10.0 Tubes, replaced the year old Mega-Ray with one & soon will be lighting all of my enclosures with them as my other repti-glos expire, anyway.

But back to the Exo Terra Repti-Glo 10.0 tubes. So there really are no 'Obvious Reasons' (as Beardie Parent said) why they shouldn't be used & from what I understand from your post, pose no more threat of injury, (comparing the number of these bulbs out there, to the amount of reported actual injuries that were proven bulb related & not setup related) if the manufacturers specs are followed, than basically just about any other bulb on the market.

I know a lot is all personal preference, but feel it is pretty much a crap shoot these days with any bulb, as this busy thread has proven. Until the Mega Ray & now the Repti-Sun 10.0 tubes, I have exclusively been using the Repti-Glo 10.0 tubes in all of my enclosures for years without issue, right from day 1, not necessarily because of price, or quality for that matter, but local ease of availability & they have always done the job quite well for me. Just want to try the Repti-Sun now, as everywhere you go, it seems to have the best reviews.

Thanks again,
Germain

Hi, Germain.

I agree with most of what you say, and I've noticed from other posts of yours on this thread that you're a natural sceptic. I like that. 8)
But I think that I must take issue (no offence intended) with

I know a lot is all personal preference, but feel it is pretty much a crap shoot these days with any bulb, as this busy thread has proven.

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What I have learned over the last 5 years is that the wavelengths emitted by a lamp are extremely important, because the shorter the wavelength, the more energy is released when it is absorbed by the skin or eyes. If wavelengths shorter than those found in natural sunlight are present, these are much more likely to cause DNA damage than longer-wavelength UVB. In fact, much laboratory research relies upon this fact, using lamps emitting these same wavelengths to stimulate the production of cancerous cells.

This has been known for a very long time. According to an official action spectrum for DNA damage producing skin cancer in humans, published by Setlow in 1974, UV light at 285nm is 400% more effective at damaging DNA than UV light at 295nm, and 1,370% more effective than light at 300nm.
(The abstract of the original paper can be read here: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/9/3363 but you can get the action spectrum itself, as a table of numbers, from several sources, if anyone wants one I will email it to you off-list.)

No research has been done, as far as I know, regarding the effects of long-term exposure of reptile skin to the tiny quantities of this type of radiation that are emitted by some lamps. And it is only a very small amount.
As you quite rightly point out, hundreds of thousands of people have seen no ill effects in their reptiles, whilst using these lamps, and yes, there is very little in the way of proof that harm can be done. That would require laboratory experimentation; all we have is a few isolated cases of PKC associated with ExoTerra lamps, and I know of just a handful of cases of skin cancers in reptiles kept under artificial lamps, only one of which was an ExoTerra lamp, and the specific link between that lamp and that reptile's cancer is unprovable anyway.
But all I'm saying is that, given that there are other lamps available that do not have any UVB below 295nm, and have UVI:UVB ratios that are closer to sunlight, it seems reasonable to explain the options to people, and also to make the results of all lamp tests known to the manufacturers.

It is encouraging indeed, to see the way many of them have worked hard - and are still trying hard - to eliminate very-short-wavelength UVB from their lamps over the last few years.
It's extremely difficult to produce a very cheap UVB lamp that is of good quality; strict quality control is very expensive. Unfortunately, unlike the human tanning lamp industry, the pet lamp manufacturing industry is completely unregulated... and everyone wants their lamps to be dirt cheap.

I agree with you entirely that scare tactics (- talking about "death rays" and "evil lamps" and other such total nonsense that I have seen on occasions) are totally unwarranted, and I think a lot of manufacturers have suffered unacceptable abuse in this way.
But there's nothing wrong in wanting the best for your animals. I don't have any qualms about pointing out things that I reckon could be improved upon. I don't think that's a "crap shoot", do you?

All the best
Frances

So does anyone have any information on Fluker's Sun Spot MVB? It seems there is something wrong with every other MVB out there but I personally have not seen anything about this bulb. I need a new bulb but not sure which way to go.
I really don't want to install a new fixture so I would like to stick with a MVB or I could use a compact. Are there any safe and good compacts that is good for a bearded dragon basking at 14 inches? I am weary of compact lamps because of past issues.
I just recieved an email from ReptileUV stating they are having issues with their 100W self ballasted bulbs and will not be shipping them due to the fact they are burning out on people quickly. The externally ballasted bulbs are also STILL on backorder. He said they would have their shipment in 2-3 weeks but I am still not sure if I trust them either. They seem to get the problem fixed... but not really fixed.
Is there an acceptable MVB right now or compact?
I am tempted to buy the zoomed reptisun and the fixture in the mean time (but I really don't want to!!).

Hi Frances,

No offence taken, as you are our UV 'Guru'. The 'Crap Shoot' (Gamble, as in the game of 'Shooting Craps' - Definition: a risky or uncertain venture - My apologies if you may have taken it another way.) that I was talking about, is that most manufacturers have been changing their bulbs so much, so often, usually without notice to the public or the uninformed, that what seems to be a good bulb one day, can be not so good purchased or acquired the next week or month, or old stock vs new stock. From what I have read of your testing results, there seems to be very few bulbs out there, at least available in North America, with reasonably consistent readings from bulb to bulb by the same manufacturer, particularly the MVBs.

I & I'm sure most of us, truly appreciate the Testing, Input, Time & Effort that you put into informing us of your results, here & on your website, to enable us to make more educated choices, making it not near as much of a "Crap Shoot'. Maybe that's not quite the right term, but that is what comes to mind & to me, seems to suit. And no, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the best for your animal.

What gets me is comments like the one mentioned in my previous post, from people who have not tried something themselves & ditz a product without any actual facts behind it.

The technical issues behind all this has pretty much evaded me until more recently, mostly because of your info & explanations, which have enabled me to understand it somewhat better. I thank you for that also.

I am very much like, what I feel the majority of the rest of us are, we want a UVB bulb that does the job well without injuring our beloved animals. And I have found that the Repti-Glo 10.0 tubes have for me, for years, without any issues whatsoever. I never had any worries until I decided to go with what was proclaimed to be, after much research at the time, the best bulb on market, the Mega-Ray & we all know what happened there & I received mine a month or 2 prior to Reptile UV posting the info of the problem bulbs on their website. And now trying the Zoo Med Reptisun 10.0 tubes, not because I have problems with my previous choice of the Exo-Terra, but because I too would like the best for my animals & by the info available to me, may be a slightly better bulb. After the 3 months of using the Repti-Sun 10.0 tube in one of my enclosures (Replacing the Mega-Ray), I have seen absolutely no difference over the Repti-Glo.

Thank you very much for your reply Frances, always informative & appreciated.

PuffPuff11":27ib6lsl said:

Are there any safe and good compacts that is good for a bearded dragon basking at 14 inches?

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Good luck in finding one for that distance, particularly if it happens to be mounted above a screen.

Germain

Good luck in finding one for that distance, particularly if it happens to be mounted above a screen.

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The fixture is not above a screen, nothing inhibiting the UV at all. I just need a new bulb.

The Repti-Glo 10.0 & the Repti-Sun 10.0 both claim effective UVB to a max of 20" from an unfiltered bulb. At 14", I'm sure the bulb would have to be replaced long before the manufacturer's recommended 1 yr, because of the usual UVB dissipation over time. This is not a recommendation, just what the manufacturer's claim in their advertising & on the box, as an option. As I too, have past performance qualms about using compacts of any kind, even though the issues may have since been rectified & I just prefer the coverage of a tube. 18"-24" T8 Under the cabinet fluorescent fixtures (I use them in all of my enclosures) work very well & can be acquired from most large hardware or building supply stores (Walmart, Home Depot, Rona, etc.), even liquidation stores, very reasonably priced if you look around, $10-$15.

Frances, please note the edit in my previous post to include the true meaning of "Crap Shoot" to alleviate misinterpretation, there was absolutely no disrespect meant.

G.

Thanks for the input.
At this point I have only been using the megaray with his basking spot on the warm end of his tank. After reading more of Frances' posts and more about UVB bulbs and lighting in general, I am going to buy the reptisun 10.0 and put it either on the cool side of his tank or the middle and leave my 2 year old megaray next to his basking bulb. It is externally ballasted and most of those get more life than the internally ballasted so for now I think it will be fine (he also goes outside a few times a week so he should be fine on his UVB levels).
I read the reptisun and other linear tubes provide more of a "shade" lighting and UV levels found in the shade. So I figure he can bask and then leave that area and still get a small amount of UV when on the other side of his tank hanging out in his hammock.

I could be mistaken, but I wasn't aware that there were UV rays in the shade, would not what is causing the shade, be blocking the UV also? Don't think much of that theory. :wink:

Hi, Germain and PuffPuff11.

PuffPuff11, I reckon your solution is a good one. It's very likely indeed that your 2-year-old EB MegaRay is still emitting very good UVB. (Do you know anyone with a UVB meter, to take a reading for you?) I have one original MegaRay still giving me good UVB after 4 years and 9 months of use, 12 hours a day. I know that's an exception, and two others I had at about the same time did start to fail after 2 - 2.5 years of similar use... but one of these started to go on and off, and one actually became quite dim, they "didn't look right" before they failed. Another thing I noticed was that if I looked inside the failing bulbs when they were switched off, through the more transparent edge of the front glass, I could see that the arc tube (the bit that's like a sort of small glass sausage hung vertically inside) had gone jet black, whereas in the one that's still going strong, it has stayed almost clear glass.

Your theory about the "UV in the shade" is basically correct; that is a term I invented; but it needs a bit of explaining I think.
I like to describe the two ways we provide UVB to reptiles indoors as the "Sunbeam Method" and the "Shade Method".
The "Sunbeam Method" means creating, as closely as possible, a small "patch of sunlight" in the vivarium, with a UV Index anywhere from about UVI 3.0 to 6.0.
UVI 3.0 is like early morning sunlight; most sunbaskers anywhere in the world would sit out in that for quite long periods while they warm up from the night-time chill.
UVI 6.0 is mid-morning tropical sun, or mid-day summer sun in fairly high Northern latitudes. I am estimating (from the very limited data available) that most sunbasking reptiles only stay out at this sort of higher UVI level for short periods to "top up" their body warmth.
Indoors, to create a UVB zone of UVI 3.0 or above in the basking zone, usually needs a UVB mercury vapour lamp or a UVB metal halide. It can't normally be done with a fluorescent tube or compact lamp, because the beam from these is not focused - it's soft, diffused light - and the UVB is much weaker; normally about 1/5th to 1/10th of the output of a mercury vapour lamp.

The "Shade Method" means creating, as closely as possible, a large zone of very gentle UVB, with a UV Index of between about 0.5 - 2.0. This should include the basking zone (because you do want a basking lizard to get some UVB at the same time) but that sort of low level may not be sufficient if it's just in the basking zone; it needs to extend to a big area of the reptile's living space, so he gets gentle UVB whenever he's out "in the open", much as he would in the wild on an overcast day when there's no sunlight, or when he's under light shade from a bush or a tree.
I call it the "Shade Method" because the idea is to imitate the low levels of UVB you get in light shade outdoors. If I measure, for example, UVI 6.0 in full sun then walk a short way into light shade under a tree, I can easily measure UVI 1.5 - 2.0 from there.

Outdoors, with UVB from the sun, the situation is totally different than indoors with UVB from a lamp.
The reason is the sky.
The atmosphere reflects, scatters and diffuses sunlight in all directions, and it scatters short-wavelength light more than long-wavelength light.
If the atmosphere didn't exist, the sky would be jet black, day and night. But the scattered sunlight lights it up, and it is blue because blue is scattered better than all the other colours. UV is scattered even better than blue, but we can't see it of course... (I wonder what colour the sky looks to a beardie? It probably isn't blue at all. It's probably halfway between blue and 'UVA-colour'.)
So as long as you can see the blue sky, (i.e., your skin is being lit up by the light from the sky) you can get some gentle UVB, even if you are sitting in light shade - under trees, for example. UVB also reflects quite well off certain other things like sand and snow, when they are directly lit by the sun.
Obviously, if you go into dense shade where almost no light reaches you - like a cave - then no UVB will reach you either!
Here is a study done on the amount of UVB in shade under trees:
http://www.photobiology.com/photobiology2000/grant/index.htm

"...the locations people typically perceive as shady, low-irradiance locations in the environment actually can have significant UV-B exposure (40-60% of that in the direct sunlight)"

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But in a vivarium, there isn't 300 miles of atmosphere between the reptile and the light source. A few feet of air, to all intents and purposes, has no scattering effect whatsoever on the UVB. So in the vivarium, the rays act in the way we all learned at school - they travel in straight lines, and out of the direct beam, there is no measurable UVB. (Well, there might be small traces reflected from sand, or metal items in the vivarium... but nothing significant at all.) The "shade" out of the area lit by the UVB lamp is pretty much 100% UVB-free. So Germ is right, there's no UVB in shadowed areas, in a vivarium.

Of course, every reptile needs shadowed, 100% UVB-free areas, too.
But that's my explanation about the "Shade Method" created using fluorescent tubes, and the "Sunbeam Method" using mercury vapour lamps.

The problem I see with compact lamps is that they are providing "Shade Method" amounts of UVB, in "Sunbeam Method" - sized patches.
A 4ft ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 tube will create a gentle UVB zone that's about 3ft long (it tails off towards the ends) of about UVI 1.0 at 10" distance.
But a ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 compact lamp in their Deep Dome Reflector will only produce a gentle UVB zone of UVI 1.0 that's about 18" wide if it is 8 - 9 inches above the reptile's back - that is very close! And UVI 1.0 is only a very low level of UVB. Even if this was positioned perfectly, so it was 8 - 9" over the basking zone itself, the beardie would need to spend a large portion of its day sitting in that exact spot, to get anything resembling a natural dose of UVB.

Just my few cents worth.

Frances

Thanks for your response, I have read many of your posts and have learned ALOT about UV and different lights lately. I figure getting the reptisun will help ensure he is getting adequate UV when not basking. I do not know anyone with a UV meter, I wish I did. I don't remember exactly when I installed this bulb but it is between 18 mos to 2 years. I had read that you had an almost 5 yr old megaray that was still really good, so that made me feel better. Puff still likes to sit under the megaray and has great color so I image it's doing something. I will take it out and look to see what the arc tube looks like.
We had Puff out yesterday morning and afternoon, I thought it was strange that he basked in full light then moved to partial shade (under a canvas chair) then to an area where the sun was completely blocked (behind the fence). There are holes at the fence and I didn't want him to go under, I kept bringing him back to the middle of the yard, but he kept going back over there in the shade so I took him inside because I didn't want him to go under the fence. He was put in his tank and immediately went to his basking area... strange. I thought he was going to the total shade by the fence because he had had enough heat and UV. Maybe he was just going over there to explore? Who knows.