Atadenovirus or Adenovirus Is Still A Concern :(

bayoupig5 · Oct 31, 2018

As some of you may know I had recently lost my sweet Emmalee. My first dragon. It has been devastating, but has made me realize that I would love to acquire a baby again. My last two dragons were adult acquisitions.

I have been looking through different breeder sites just to see what is out there and in 2018...almost 2019 am quite shocked to find that 99.9 % of breeders still do not test for atadeno/adenovirus.

When I got Emmalee back in 2009. I know that this virus was kind of off the radar. But now....it is well known and documented and still a concern. I mean how hard is it to test breedeing stock and in the same breath if that gorgeous expensive dragon is positive....take it out of the breeding line.

My concern would be bringing in a new dragon....a carrier of atadeno/adeno and infecting the other three...whether it be a baby or adult.

I asked a few breeders in my area (British Columbia, Canada) about testing. One reply was that this virus is not common in BC....but she gets dragons from the US and other places as well....who also do not test. So how is this logical...how would you know.?

I gather most dragons with the virus would be sickly. I have not had any experience with atadeno/adeno at all, but I have heard of non -symptomatic carriers who can make your other dragons sick.

I only know of one breeder that tests for this virus. I got my Littlefoot from her. Northern Dragons in Manitoba....not sure if she is still breeding....but why is this not more prevalent?

BeerdedBiped · Oct 31, 2018

Simple. Consumer ignorance and/or compliance. That combined with the reality that many lizards can be carriers with no visible symptoms and essentially live a normal life doesn’t help to motivate action on the parts of consumers, sellers, and breeders. Most breeders won’t make a move until it effects the bottom line.

LizardoBombardo · Oct 31, 2018

We are in very similar situations. I lost my precious baby, Taro, one week ago. She tested positive for ADV around 1yr old, and got gradually and progressively worse over the last year. I decided right away I want to continue owning beardies, but I'm having the same issue. All the breeders and store clerks at reptile/exotic pet stores claim to have never heard of it. I feel like I'm going crazy sometimes! But with personal experience watching my baby girl succumb to ADV, I am being very cautious this time around.

I would say that yes, ADV is still a major concern. Also, while there are sickly dragons that die off as babies and carriers that show no symptoms, there are also cases like mine. Taro showed no symptoms till she was a little over a year old, then her symptoms began to manifest as neurological issues. Starting from the base of her tail and moving gradually upwards she became semi-paralyzed. She still had the physical ability to move her legs, but the neurological signals weren't allowing her to coordinate or control her movements. In any case, you are right to be concerned and cautious regarding ADV.

Much like yourself, I have been devastated by my recent loss. I empathize with what you're going through and wish you the best during this time. I hope we are both able to heal and eventually find happy, healthy new additions to our families.

Drache613 · Oct 31, 2018

Hello,

If I had a dime for everytime I thought the same thing, I could own an
island. As already stated, greed is probably the primary reason. They
fail to place emphasis on long term health & most of them clearly just
don't care. They don't have them long enough to notice any Adeno issues.
It is so sad & is definitely an epidemic.
Unfortunately, they just don't feel it is worth the investment or time to
test them & don't place the value on it. I have been frustrated beyond
belief, for years.

Tracie

kingofnobbys · Nov 1, 2018

Only real solution is to prevent reptiles infected / carrying these from breeding --> will prevent the transmission of the virus from the adult male or female and subsequently will mean the no infected offspring .

If people want a companion pet that will never have contact with another reptile keeping one who has a known Atadenovirus or Adenovirus positive status this is fine PROVIDED the reptile's virus status is assessed BEFORE the sale (by the seller or breeder , at their cost) and this is disclosed to the buyer - too many shonky operators are selling infected reptiles and deliberately failing to disclose the status of the infected reptiles for fraudulent reasons.

I am very glad I live in Australia and these two viruses are virtually unheard off in this hobby.

bayoupig5 · Nov 1, 2018

Replies on order:

BeerdedBiped

Simple. Consumer ignorance and/or compliance. That combined with the reality that many lizards can be carriers with no visible symptoms and essentially live a normal life doesn’t help to motivate action on the parts of consumers, sellers, and breeders. Most breeders won’t make a move until it effects the bottom line.

Which is so very sad. Let's just breed sickly pets, for a profit....shakes head. Especially since the test is so cheap...I mean really let's just round it off...3 negative tests cost 60 bucks. That is not even a ding in the wallet, even if you are testing several breeding pairs. Up front yes....but overall profit will far out weigh the cost of testing.

LizardoBombardo

lost my precious baby, Taro, one week ago. She tested positive for ADV around 1yr old, and got gradually and progressively worse over the last year.

So sorry this happened to you and that you have had to deal with this issue up front. Truly this is my concern, especially as I already have three dragons in my home.

Much like yourself, I have been devastated by my recent loss. I empathize with what you're going through and wish you the best during this time. I hope we are both able to heal and eventually find happy, healthy new additions to our families.

My Emmalee was ill last year for a short time, with bloody urates, she never fully recovered and continued to lose a lot of weight. Eventually she was not even processing water anymore, just passing water as it came in. Not sure what she ultimately had, but her kidneys were huge, and despite eating well she had lost about 20% of her weight. So sad, I cannot even look at the tattoo I got of her and it has been 4 weeks. She did not have adeno.

Thanks for you kind words. I too hope we can find happy, healthy babies, but it seems like it is more of a lotto type system...you get what you get. Best of luck to you and so sorry for your loss, only lizard lovers will truly understand the loss of these beautiful creatures.

Drache613

They fail to place emphasis on long term health & most of them clearly just
don't care. They don't have them long enough to notice any Adeno issues.
It is so sad & is definitely an epidemic.

Not just the long term health of the dragons they are selling, but the dragons they could potentially effect already in the homes of pet owners, seems so very irresponsible to me. I did talk with Nancy McBride/Northern Dragons, but she is no longer breeding. Too bad as I think she was the only one to truly test all her breeding stock and confirm adeno free babies.

Do you of anyone who is testing their breeder stock currently?

Kingofnobbys

If people want a companion pet that will never have contact with another reptile keeping one who has a known Atadenovirus or Adenovirus positive status this is fine PROVIDED the reptile's virus status is assessed BEFORE the sale (by the seller or breeder , at their cost) and this is disclosed to the buyer - too many shonky operators are selling infected reptiles and deliberately failing to disclose the status of the infected reptiles for fraudulent reasons.

A companion pet - 1 companion pet. Sure this would be fine. But in my situation I have three other dragons (all companion pets) and I am putting all of them at risk by bringing in a adeno dragon. As bearded dragon owners - all of us, we also know that you just can't have 1 :lol:

Second problem is much like LizardoBombardo said, adeno was not evident in their dragon until 1 year later. So the breeder may not have a clue or indication that there were any positive adeno dragons. I gather this breeder had an adeno carrying dragon, so would never see overt symptoms and keeps breeding. So I do not think this is a case of breeder knowledge specifically or at least in all cases, but breeder ignorance. I mean much like I have encountered....."adeno is not a problem in BC, it is very rare". How do you know? You do not test your dragons yourself, and you also said that the dragons you buy for breeding stock are not tested, but come for reputable breeders. Some of which came from all over Canada and the US. Not to put this particular breeder down, but the comments seemed mis-informed. Not a problem in BC...ok...what about the dragons you are buying from all over North America?

I just wished breeders were more knowledgeable or if they are, more responsible with this issue. It would be so simple to eradicate this disease with a few dollars and due diligence. I have no desire to breed, in my little city (200,000) I see far too many dragons being sold weekly at 2-4 years of age, people get tired of them and flog them off so easily. There are new ads on my local news page every week. If I did I would start slow, buy a couple dragons, test them fully, negative dragons breed only. I understand I could be at a loss, buying dragons who are infected before finding negative ones, but it has to start somewhere. It is just so sad.

kingofnobbys · Nov 4, 2018

bayoupig5":3jqm8mcg said:
Replies on order:

BeerdedBiped

Simple. Consumer ignorance and/or compliance. That combined with the reality that many lizards can be carriers with no visible symptoms and essentially live a normal life doesn’t help to motivate action on the parts of consumers, sellers, and breeders. Most breeders won’t make a move until it effects the bottom line.

Click to expand...

Which is so very sad. Let's just breed sickly pets, for a profit....shakes head. Especially since the test is so cheap...I mean really let's just round it off...3 negative tests cost 60 bucks. That is not even a ding in the wallet, even if you are testing several breeding pairs. Up front yes....but overall profit will far out weigh the cost of testing.

LizardoBombardo

lost my precious baby, Taro, one week ago. She tested positive for ADV around 1yr old, and got gradually and progressively worse over the last year.

Click to expand...

So sorry this happened to you and that you have had to deal with this issue up front. Truly this is my concern, especially as I already have three dragons in my home.

Much like yourself, I have been devastated by my recent loss. I empathize with what you're going through and wish you the best during this time. I hope we are both able to heal and eventually find happy, healthy new additions to our families.

Click to expand...

My Emmalee was ill last year for a short time, with bloody urates, she never fully recovered and continued to lose a lot of weight. Eventually she was not even processing water anymore, just passing water as it came in. Not sure what she ultimately had, but her kidneys were huge, and despite eating well she had lost about 20% of her weight. So sad, I cannot even look at the tattoo I got of her and it has been 4 weeks. She did not have adeno.

Thanks for you kind words. I too hope we can find happy, healthy babies, but it seems like it is more of a lotto type system...you get what you get. Best of luck to you and so sorry for your loss, only lizard lovers will truly understand the loss of these beautiful creatures.

Drache613

They fail to place emphasis on long term health & most of them clearly just
don't care. They don't have them long enough to notice any Adeno issues.
It is so sad & is definitely an epidemic.

Click to expand...

Not just the long term health of the dragons they are selling, but the dragons they could potentially effect already in the homes of pet owners, seems so very irresponsible to me. I did talk with Nancy McBride/Northern Dragons, but she is no longer breeding. Too bad as I think she was the only one to truly test all her breeding stock and confirm adeno free babies.

Do you of anyone who is testing their breeder stock currently?

Kingofnobbys

If people want a companion pet that will never have contact with another reptile keeping one who has a known Atadenovirus or Adenovirus positive status this is fine PROVIDED the reptile's virus status is assessed BEFORE the sale (by the seller or breeder , at their cost) and this is disclosed to the buyer - too many shonky operators are selling infected reptiles and deliberately failing to disclose the status of the infected reptiles for fraudulent reasons.

Click to expand...

A companion pet - 1 companion pet. Sure this would be fine. But in my situation I have three other dragons (all companion pets) and I am putting all of them at risk by bringing in a adeno dragon. As bearded dragon owners - all of us, we also know that you just can't have 1 :lol:

Second problem is much like LizardoBombardo said, adeno was not evident in their dragon until 1 year later. So the breeder may not have a clue or indication that there were any positive adeno dragons. I gather this breeder had an adeno carrying dragon, so would never see overt symptoms and keeps breeding. So I do not think this is a case of breeder knowledge specifically or at least in all cases, but breeder ignorance. I mean much like I have encountered....."adeno is not a problem in BC, it is very rare". How do you know? You do not test your dragons yourself, and you also said that the dragons you buy for breeding stock are not tested, but come for reputable breeders. Some of which came from all over Canada and the US. Not to put this particular breeder down, but the comments seemed mis-informed. Not a problem in BC...ok...what about the dragons you are buying from all over North America?

I just wished breeders were more knowledgeable or if they are, more responsible with this issue. It would be so simple to eradicate this disease with a few dollars and due diligence. I have no desire to breed, in my little city (200,000) I see far too many dragons being sold weekly at 2-4 years of age, people get tired of them and flog them off so easily. There are new ads on my local news page every week. If I did I would start slow, buy a couple dragons, test them fully, negative dragons breed only. I understand I could be at a loss, buying dragons who are infected before finding negative ones, but it has to start somewhere. It is just so sad.

If some keeper, petshop or breeder sells a dragon (or other reptile) who proves to be virus positive, this person needs to be held FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE for all vet fees for the infected dragon for it's life. NO IFS NO BUTS.

Only language some money hungry people understand is a financial cost . I'm betting they would soon be testing every animal in their hands and ensuring they never sell one which is infected if this were forced onto them.

Drache613 · Nov 4, 2018

Hello,

I have to put this out here. I have been at this since I started the testing society which was
in 2007. I am horrified at the lack of concern by the breeders I have to say. I was bullied,
cursed, ridiculed & badgered when I started the society. The Fauna discussion board/forum
does not protect its members from harassment.
In the mid to late 1980's, a couple of well known vets here in the US were trying to help &
spread awareness but it fell on deaf & ignorant ears. They told a handful of breeders who
bred specialty morphs to cease breeding until the problem could get contained. They were
having horrendous issues, die offs, etc, but would try to cover it up by culling or lying. All
of the breeders were scared to talk about it for some reason, afraid it would hurt their business.
All along, they should have been more concerned about the animals' welfare & we wouldn't
have near the epidemic that we have now. They were warned, but didn't heed the warning.
So, the vets essentially gave up because they were not taking their recommendations seriously.
The breeders would apparently harass them as well, which is extremely unprofessional.
Unless more protective measures are taken & breeders start to take responsibility for their
actions, nothing is going to change.

Tracie

kingofnobbys · Nov 5, 2018

Drache613":1co6ljaf said:
Hello,

I have to put this out here. I have been at this since I started the testing society which was
in 2007. I am horrified at the lack of concern by the breeders I have to say. I was bullied,
cursed, ridiculed & badgered when I started the society. The Fauna discussion board/forum
does not protect its members from harassment.
In the mid to late 1980's, a couple of well known vets here in the US were trying to help &
spread awareness but it fell on deaf & ignorant ears. They told a handful of breeders who
bred specialty morphs to cease breeding until the problem could get contained. They were
having horrendous issues, die offs, etc, but would try to cover it up by culling or lying. All
of the breeders were scared to talk about it for some reason, afraid it would hurt their business.
All along, they should have been more concerned about the animals' welfare & we wouldn't
have near the epidemic that we have now. They were warned, but didn't heed the warning.
So, the vets essentially gave up because they were not taking their recommendations seriously.
The breeders would apparently harass them as well, which is extremely unprofessional.
Unless more protective measures are taken & breeders start to take responsibility for their
actions, nothing is going to change.

Tracie

Comes down greed and valuing maximum $ profit per breeding female over the health and welfare of the breeding adults and their offspring …. BLOODY DISGUSTING !!! those people need to banned from the trade permanently and never allowed to keep reptiles ever again.

Atadenovirus or Adenovirus Is Still A Concern :(

bayoupig5

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