Cultural differences in keeping dragons together?

Hi, I'm new. I have been looking around the forum and I must say that I was surprised about all the negativity about keeping several bearded dragons together. It seems like every one agrees that it will only result in fight, missing limbs and vet bills. Or even death. I don't know if it's some kind of different cultural point of view (I live in northern Europe and I'm guessing the majority of this forum is Americans) but where I come from it seems much more common to keep beardies together, without fighting and stressed animals I might add.

In general our view of housing bearded dragons can be put together as:
*They are solitaire animals that doesn't need company. But with the right setup they can usually be housed together. Always with caution though and with an extra enclosure lying around.
*Never keep males together.
*Male and female can be housed together but not whole year around. They must be separate if the male stress the female. It's preferred to have at least two females with a male though.

I don't house dragons together myself but I became curious about these different opinions. I understand why it's better to house them seperately but if fighting is such a big problem as it seems to be on this site, why haven't I seen it? I have contact with many other dragon owners through online reptile communities. Have you really seen many examples of fighting or stressed dragons? Or is it something rare that have gotten to much attention? Are there anyone here who has experience (god or bad) about housing them together?

Might it have something to do with the setup? I was looking though the enclosure section on this site and I must say, without accuse anyone, the enclosures I saw was terribly small. If that is what people house their dragons in I can understand how they can get on each others nerves and start to fight. Where I live we have laws regarding cagesize and many of the enclosure I saw would be illegal to use here. I hope no one is offended by this, it's just another cultural thing I guess. But I think that might be one of the reasons why I haven't seen much fighting.

Hi, I'm gonna jump in here and see if I can share a few things that I've read since I joined the forum about 6 yrs ago and my experiences.

First I wanted to mention that in the wild, beardies only are together to breed, then they go their separate ways and also leave the eggs to fend for themselves. So, if you think about having beardies together in captivity, they can't go their separate ways but are instead forced to be together even if they don't want to be.

Unfortunately, I have read about MANY horror stories here and have seen LOTS of pictures of beardies that have been mutilated by another cage mate. Sometimes it just involves babies that mistake a foot or tail for a feeder as it moves in the tank although other times it means that the set up may not be up to par or the babies aren't getting enough to eat so they nibble on their siblings. As they get older, dominance issues start and it seems like there always has to be a dominant beardie. Then when puberty hits, it gets even worse. Some owners aren't aware of their sex when they purchase them and when they do hit puberty which can be as early as 5 to 6 months, the breeding signs appear, the black beards, headbobbing, arm waving, etc. Even though a female should not be bred at such a young age, it does happen which depletes the female of everything she needs since she isn't fully grown or developed so she doesn't survive. Breeding a male that is too young also causes multiple health problems. I can't begin to tell you how many days & nights I have tried to help an injured beardie that had been housed with another beardie and have been heartsick over & over again hearing the terrible ordeal that these beardies have gone through. Unfortunately, a lot of them have not survived. Having a male and female adult together constantly causes a lot of stress on the female as the males are known to want to breed non-stop preventing her from being able to eat, bask, sleep, etc.

We rescued a 4 1/2 inch male beardie that we thought was a female at the time. When we were at the petstore, we saw one of his cage mates attempt to eat him as he was much smaller than the rest, the cage mate had his whole back leg in his mouth until we screamed out an intervened. His back had no scales left on it because he had been burrowing down in the heavy bark to try to survive. We brought him home after paying $50 for him, not knowing if he would even survive the night. He was the reason I found this forum. I'm ashamed to say that I put him in a tank with another about the same size and when I found out the signs of stress and dominance issues to look for, I realized he was stressed very badly. This is what I discovered when I took a close look after someone here filled me in: he was very dark in color in the tank, when we took him out, his colors brightened almost instantly, only to darken right away when placed back in his tank, when the other beardie was eating, Gizmo would run away because he wasn't eating as much so he felt threatened since she was growing faster than he was, he would lay on the bottom of the tank with his eyes closed, not being able to bask when he wanted or needed to, didn't really gain much weight and didn't eat half as much as she did. It sickens me to have to go through all this again, but I wanted to give you examples of what I was seeing. After separating them, he was a different beardie in a few days, his colors were bright ALL the time, he could bask when he wanted, his appetite tripled, his eyes were fully open and happy all the time and he was gaining weight. One morning I discovered he had a jet black beard and he was head bobbing to the female he had shared a tank with previously so we were very lucky that we separated them when we did as we didn't realize we had actually put a male & female together, thought they were both females since he was so small, changed his name from Liz to Giz (Gizmo).

When you have the time to look around the forum some more, you will see quite a few beardies with missing limbs, toes, tails, etc from being housed together. I believe that most of the posts will be in the E.R. forum. It's also not uncommon to have beardies together for quite a while and then have one turn on the other in a second and the owner comes home to a bloody tank and injured or dead beardie, I have read about this too many times than I want to remember. So, most of us feel it isn't worth the risks, they all like their own space and can still be allowed to interact by viewing each other from a different tank or when one is running around with the other in his viv.

Hope this gives you a little more insight as to why a lot of us here (perhaps most of us) have our beardies separated for their well being and our piece of mind unless they are only put together long enough to breed and then returned to their own individual vivs.

Thanks so much for your post!!! Really intriguing.......

Could you please share more information about the requirements for bearded dragon enclosures and any other laws in regard to their care?

In general, I am for smaller government. However, I have always felt that it is "too easy" for people to become pet owners and many don't take the responsibility seriously. As a result, there is a lot of needless suffering for the animals. Personally, I think there should be some sort of formal application process to own a pet. You should be able to demonstrate that you have the means (i.e. time & money) as well as basic knowledge of the species in question.

The habitat size probably does make a lot of difference when it comes to minimizing stress and fighting among dragons housed together. I know that in areas of the US where the weather permits, there are well known breeders that house large numbers of dragons outside together where they can easily retreat and there isn't any competition for food or basking spots.

Im from northern Europe as well but live in the US. And I honestly think it comes down to beardie personality. I remember my first beardie douglas, that we had together with Peters female. They were almost always basking side by side, he never chased her or mounted her, they ate together, they slept together (not on top on one another but side by side on the branches in the viv). They chased cricks together etc. I remember it very clearly, no signs of stress, no blackbeard, armwaving, nothing. The viv was huge, but it was rarely they were apart.

However, before finding this place and having mine and my friends baby beardies together, that didnt work out as well at all, my beardie was never mean to her cluchsibbling, but the sibbling was still stressed out. Herculette mostly ignored the sibbling, but the sibbling was uncomfortable none the less and didn't eat as much, bad hunter and quickly mine almost doubled in size and was always having stress marks. So we separated them. Also I think it's harder for smaller beardies to be together than adult beardies, due to the hormonal change is making them more primal, I think its the hormones that causes the fights more than anything else.

Then we also have the fact that yes, beardies in the wild are solitaire animals, but we have breed them for how long now? Dogs are no longer true pack animals, tame dogs that goes wild are in loose groups, they go together as pack IF times makes them, but the packs interchanges, the one leading the group changes depending on what is needed and so on. Other than that, they really don't, in comparasion to their close wild relative the wolf. So just like we altered the wolfs when do selective breeding to our todays dogs, alterering the beardies with morphs, breeding certain temperaments (calmer beardies for companionship), might make a difference too in the fact that some beardies enjoy other beardies companies? Granted its not as many generations yet as the wolf, but its enough to change some.

I rather belive in safe but sorry though, and I do belive that its better to place adult evalutated beardies together that is shown to be docile beardies if housing them together, instead of from baby, and that is after seeing all beardies with missing limbs around here.

I understand that there are many horror stories out there. It would be very interesting to see the setup of the enclosure of a few of those cases. In my opinion a good setup should be large and have enough of everything. There shouldn't only be one basking spot, there should be one good basking spot for each lizard. Same with food and other stuff that they require. They shouldn't need to bother with another beardie in order to get what they want. I think that minimizing stress and fighting alot. After that I guess it up their personalite as Monkey said.

I have also noticed another big difference. By looking at this site people seem to handle their lizards much more than we do. I have seen people telling about how their beardies love being handled and being pet. And how they let them out in a leach and let they run around in the house. I even saw one that slept with is lizard. :O It almost looks like they interact with them at the same level as with mammals. Is this true or did I just stumble upon weird threads?

Neither way, where I come from handleing reptiles is a big NO NO unless it's necessary. Petting the reptiles just for fun is considered bad reptile keeping by the ones that are really into the reptile hobby. Newbies still interact and handle their pets alot though.

Then I first got into the hobby I used to to handle my beradie once a week or more. And then I was told about studies that shows that reptiles become stressed by handling (even if they accept it) so I stopped. So far I haven't seen any studies that say anything positive about lizards interacting with humans.

kariann":2by8ldfh said:

Thanks so much for your post!!! Really intriguing.......

Could you please share more information about the requirements for bearded dragon enclosures and any other laws in regard to their care?

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It's a lot of those basic stuff that is obvious to every good pet owner. Right temperature, uvb-lighting (for those species that need it) and so on. I don't want to go into any details because it's quite boring. But about the enclosure size it goes like this (anything less is illegal):

The minimum requirements for a bearded dragon that is 50 cm / 1.6 feet or less is 0.9 sq meters / 9.7 sq feet and 0.5 m / 1.6 feet
The minimum requirements for a bearded dragon that is 51 cm / 1.7 inches or more is 1.8 sq meters / 19.4 sq feet and 0.6 m / 2 feet

I think it's good that these laws exists, because then you find someone that doesn't take care of their animals in a good way you can actually do something about it.

isdrake its hard to proove what is good and bad for them through science. Reptiles have few indicators. But on my beardie, I can tell that she more than likes it she demands it. She will sit in the viv, and show the stress marks, she goes darker, darker, darker. Till I go to her, pick her up and have her on my shoulder or arm. Then she will go bright orange, and tummy is creamy white. She will approach me when she's out and climb up on me. If I was a stress factor, wouldn't she avoid me? Same things with the bigger lizards as monitors, they are proven if tames properly to really like human interaction and are concidered on the same intelligence level as a dog and that is scientificly proven. You can target train them (clicker training) as well, and housebreak them. However I have noticed that yes my crested gecko accepts it and is chilling, but she dont seek me out as Herculette does. So I think it comes down to breed, and as well as we domesticated the wolf many thousands of years ago I think the beardie is on good way as well.
Mine is looking at me right now, despite she should be BASKING, she wants out to play.

Personally,through experience,I have found that MY beardies love to interact with us. I can't speak for anyone elses beardies,but mine are spoiled. When I did my research before getting my first beardie many people talked about cuddling witht their beardies,taking them places,etc........ I initiated handling,holding,rubbing and cuddling with them. Now they expect to be handled daily,if I don't they watch every move I make as if saying "Hey Mom,where are our cuddles?" When let out for roam around time,my beardies prefer to sit close to us or on us and will crawl to us wanting to be with us. Take my female: she is my husbands beardie(she belongs to all of us,but prefers my husband.) She will crawl from the couch up on his lap,chest or shoulder and sit with him,she crawls around until she finds a comfortable spot,depending on what she wants,if she wants to go to sleep,it's right at his neck and body wiggles into a comfy spot and falls asleep,if she wants to play she roams around all over him,his lap shoulders,and has even climbed up and sat on his head.This is not forced,this is what she does. My male is the same way with me he sits on me or cuddles at my neck and we often sit together outside or on the couch. If my beardies are stressing,they get time out of their houses with whomever is home,if it's me they sit with me or my husband or son. We also take them on trips,each in his/her own carrier and their colors are always brighter and happier.They love to sit on us and bask outside as well. We really enjoy our scaly babies and they seem to enjoy us.Too many horror stories for me to put them together and judging by their actions when they see each other across the room,it would be disasterous to house them together.

I agree i too have seen many horror stories, mainly from people who either didnt know the risks or didnt accept the signs. There have been a few cases of two females living together with no issues SO FAR, but they tend to be the exception to the rule.

My female had a clear preference for me, and she will get stressed if we dont do her morning routine (stroke, bath, free time to run/play then food) As soon as she gets what she wants shes happy. She will run around, come back to me 'kiss' (lick me) and run off again. when shes had enough she will come back and settle down on my lap etc, she will even climb up the couch to get to me. I was aware when i started people treated them like dogs, and i didnt want to, but she demands a similar level of attention and affection from me!

I just thought i would point out i am from the UK not the US and all the people i speak to treat them in exactly the same way. there have been cases of adopted dragons who have not had the same attention being aggressive to and 'intruder' in their cage. This could involve feeding or changing veggies. I wounder if your dragons would react similarly if you interacted more with them?

Buggsy,
Thanks for mentioning the kisses!! Ours also kiss us,Alf will crawl up to my husbands cheek or neck and kiss him 2 or 3 times in a row and she does me the same way and it's the same way with Gimli they also kiss our son. I know people say that's how they smell/touch to see their enviornment,but this happens regularly with all of us so I tend to think of it as kisses. We also tuck our beardies in at night. We lay them on a blankie and if it's cold they get burritoed(covered) lately with warmer weather they both crawl out of burritoes so we don't cover them. It may seem crazy but they seem to enjoy this and both will wait for it,if we don't tuck them in they don't seem to sleep well. Ex.the other night I was just gonna let Gimli fall asleep as he wished because I took him to school for the kids to see. He did really well but had been petted all day and held most of the day so I decided maybe he wouldn't want to be held that night. I was WRONG he layed in his tank all evening and when i went to check on him before I went to bed at 10:00 he was still laying there with a sad look on his face as if to say "Mom,why didn't you cuddle me,am I being punished or something?" I picked up his blankie and him,sat down,put his blankie on my chest and layed him on it.He looked at me for a while so I quietly told him he was a very good boy and that he had done really well with the children that day. He crawled up to my neck,kissed me wiggled until he was comfortable and went to sleep. There have even been times that my Timmy will carry him to bed and I find him crawled out of his blankie and laying on cold floor,sometimes I leave him be because I figure he knows what he wants and others (especially if it's cold) that I pick him up,snuggle him and put him to bed myself and he goes back to sleep and doesn't get up until morning. Ok so maybe I go a little over board snuggling etc....but my dragons have come to expect it and they are my babies and are treated like memebers of our family.I didn't mention this,but my husband even has a beard and sometimes Alf will walk up his chest and kiss his beard.

lol yes, Giz will make the effort to kiss, if she didnt make skin constant, she will do it again until she does! Shes a funny buggar!

Ok so being as I am a personal owner of a beardie that was mauled by a housemate I am going to chime in.Here is a few things to consider,beardies can be kept in colonies in very large enclosures however there are always very OBVIOUS stress factors when this is done even if they are all female or multiple females with a single male.If you look just based on health factor those that keep beardies in individual enclosures will always have a beardie that towers in size when compared to a colony beardie. I cannot tell you how many times people who have seen my animals try to convince me they are GG.I must then in turn explain to them that the size difference is simply because of the fact that they are individually housed and rarely become stress thus creating a better over all health and gorowth rate.
Now the one beardie I have that was injured suffered intense damage due to his clutchmate and all of this occured prior to them reaching adulthood.He is without a tail,has deformed ribs from fractures that did not heal properly as well as MBD and vision impairment which was ALL caused by co-housing.You see the MBD was caused over a period of months because the original owner in fact did not see the signs of dominance that was happening so he did not recieve the proper basking,feeding or supplementation even though by the naked eye they were close in size internally there was all sorts of issues happening until one day she came home to a bloody mess in what she thought was an "out of the blue" occurence.That is when she called me and I rehabbed him as best I could and although he is doing well he is definately special needs,he needs hand feeding and extra supplementation to keep him healthy and he will never walk normally or see clearly so it is quite sad.To answer the question about the enclosure they were in a 4ftx2ftx2ft enclosure with seperate basking and feeding area(remember they were juvies).
As for housing M/F pairs there is a much better success rate with breeding when the pair is NOT housed together and also far less risk of binding issue with the females as she is far less stressed during the breeding season.

Now I would like to speak in regards to handling.Personlly I believe the old school method of not handling a reptile has gone to the wayside simply because we know more about them.It is very apparent that BD absolutely thrive on human interaction and if given the choice they prefer to be in proximity to their human counter parts.Yes we let them roam and handle them because it is clearly IMO in their best interest to do so.There are however many other species that do not enjoy human interaction which is why BD have a very unique place in the reptile hobbyist world and also why they are the most common herp in the US today. Point in fact I have actually had to relocate tanks to be closer to the humans because they were "sulking" in the less trafficed areas.

Wow this post was very informative. But so different in each reaction. I just put my new female bearded dragon in with my male who is a month or so older than her and I already noticed that they don't want to eat. I am a newbie bearded dragon keeper and I saw the signs and separated them right away. Pip is used to being king and the little one was so stressed I couldn't even see her color until I took her out and gave her a warm bath. She was so dark and the balck rings on her white belly were almost filled in. She colored up and was really happy when I divided the cage up. Unfortunately I have to wait a month or so before I can have them in two separate cages. So this set up will have to do until then. Luckily they get along outside the cage and run around and play with each other.

Would anyone suggest that I slowly introduce her into the cage, taking her out first feeding her and then feeding my older one just to show the whole dominance factor? After that do you think its wise to take the divider out. I think Pip was angry with her because she stole his tree and his basking spot but if I put two basking spots on either side of the cage do you think they would be ok? Pip hardly ever moves from his tree he is so lazy! I let her have the hammock she seemed to like it very much.

And thats so cute that your bearded dragons cuddle up to you like that. I noticed Pip has to make sure I am there before he decides to venture off somewhere else. He goes off far and ten runs back and licks me and stays a bit then runs off again in another direction. So cute. Just got the female today so I don't really know what she is going to be like yet. She has a cute little personality already :mrgreen:

I appreciate the compliment!! Whenever I take one of my babies anywhere I get the same thingoes she/he always sit like that or does she/he really like to be that close(sometimes they crawl from my chest to snuggle at my neck when I have them out. I explain that yes they really do seem to enjoy cuddling and have even fallen asleep or if I'm holding them out to show how they puff their beards they will clambor trying to get back to my chest everyone thinks it's so cute. I know it's a security thing,they feel safest on my chest.They seem to love it so I have no objections I love it too. Another popular question is : Aren't you afraid it's gonna bite you?

I have a couple females that I feel "ok" housing together, but I avoid it 98% of the time. Most of my females are very large dragons and tend to be on the badass side of things. My main reason for not housing together is uncontrolled breeding. A male will breed a female eventually. Every dragon has its own space. I use mostly 48 x 24 inch stackables for all of them. I have 13 adults/subadults.