Signs of Brumation or Something Serious?

[Kajolic]

I posted a few weeks back to the regard of a change in eating habits after a recent bit of Coccidia recovery (which came back negative, but as an extra step during treatment I cleaned everything with 10% ammunia in the Viv as well as the slate. Also, I baked the wood, and the slate in the oven). His eating began to pick up, but now for the past two-three days he has eaten a 2-3 crickets, 4-5 wax worms, and ~5 phoenix worms. Prior to the two days he's been eating off and on, maybe a full sitting of ~15 crickets, then he'll eat a couple, and more the next day.

This is my original post I accidentally posted in the wrong forum, but since things seemed to be going better, I left it alone:

Little Dovah is about 10 months old (est. DoB 10/15/11) Weight a little low in my own opinion due to a recent episode of Coccidia, which has been treated and come back negative of the fecal tests, but the vet says he is of good weight of 13 oz (365.5 g) but I still feel he should be around 440g. He measure just under 18" from snout to tail tip. Bowel movements are normal, urate fine, not overly watery so he is hydrated well. Waking hours follow the sunrise and sunset pretty closely, had a separate thread to that regard. He is very active, with the Viv facing a window he loves to sit at to stare into the land which he cannot roam, he will run back and forth at the Viv face front until I let him out, or he tires out and chills at a log at the front of the Viv.

Any rate, I typically fed him crickets around 11am, and again around 5pm during my work lunch and when I go home from work in the evening. Now he seems he is the least bit interested in crickets around the normal times. Granted he is nearing a year old and feedings should be nearing once a day anyway. Even still, I have tried different times of the day. For example, yesterday we tried to feed him at 11am and he wasn't interested, then again at 1pm, and again at 5pm. He didn't want anything to do with it.
I have noticed he will eat more of an undusted cricket before he will go after a dusted cricket. Don't know why. Dusting is still as I always have, first feeding of the day Sat, Sun, Tues, Wed, Fri I use Calcium w/ D3, and Mon, Thurs I use Multi-Vitamins. Is it time to adjust the dusting as well?
When I feed him, I remove him from his Vivarium and place him within a feeding bin. I have noticed he well look at me, back to his Viv, and sometimes try to climb out. When he does this I let him out, but I'm curious if that may have a reason to why he doesn't seem interested in feeding. The bin is a plastic tote close to the size of a 30 gallon tank, so he had enough room to move and hunt.
When he does decide to eat in the tote he will typically stand in one location and let the crickets come to him. I often have to coarse the crickets towards him now. Very rarely does he go after then, I would say once every 2 weeks he will be that energetic during feeding to do so.
If I put the crickets in his Viv, he will hunt them down, but I have to take out so much decor his often gets a little bothered by the changes before lunch.
If I let crickets crawl on my hand and feed them to him one at a time, he will eat them until he has had enough.

For salads I feed him Mustard greens, Collard greens, Turnip greens as the base. I'll add strawberries, blueberries, raspberries as a treat from time to time hiding them under the greens. I have a butternut squash which he loves I'll add more often than the berries. Usually he will eat a third to half of the green I put in, and half of the berries. I allow a small bit of water at the bottom of the dish to help keep the salad moist, if it dries I'll replace throughout the day. Anything I should think about adding?

To make that more recent.
Weight is a little higher, measured at 400g Friday evening, and 379g this afternoon after a small bowel movement... Don't understand the 11g difference, but :x
Bowel movements are still good and every day, well formed, just smaller. Floating them reveal that he is eating part of the salads I feed him. Urate is good.
Waking hours are with the sun, but as of late he has been sleeping from 4pm til lights out at 8:30pm, or he'll just lay there with one eye open.
Mornings are very active, sometimes I'll have to encourage him to come out the bask, but when he does he is very much active, glass dancing (because his tank faces a windows, he loves to sit at the window and watch the outdoors), but again after around 4pm he's a rock.
Trying to feed him at noon, 2, and 4pm just doesn't happen. I offered him worms and crickets today, he ate one wax worm. Yesterday one cricket, 2 wax worms, 1 phoenix worm. Little bit more yesterday. Offering him a salad, but he did not touch it today.
Doesn't display any stress marks.
I don't feel anything that would be a lump in his belly from vent upwards.

Vivarium:
UVB light is a Reptisun 10.0 Linear 36". Due to be replaced next month, it has been installed for 5 months. I did go ahead an order a new one.

Warm side is 95F
Cool side is 85F
Basking Locations are 104F (Basking Slate), 100F (Middle Wood) and 98F (Front Right Wood at Glass)
Warm side hide (under green Hammock) is 88F...also have a small dig spot under it of Alfalfa pellets he enjoys to be lazy in.
Cool side hide (Slate Cave) is 82F
Night time doesn't reach below 70F, but if it does (since I have a Window A/C since the Viv is located in my computer room) I have that CHE bulb turned to kick on closer to 67F.

Some recent photos if any help.
Half hanging off from how I sat him (didn't move) basking:

Other day trialing out a demo rope harness, this is him the day before measuring him at 400g:

This is today at around 4PM:

And at 6PM:

Let me know if there is any information that I left out. Would love to know why my little Dovah is becoming increasingly lazy, and refusing to eat as much to hardly nothing.
I'm guessing, and hoping brumation, but I wanted to get the community opinion as it's easy for me to give my opinion on someone else's Bearded, than it is my own.

If it is indeed Brumation, should I stop offering salad to allow his belly to empty in preparation? What about lights, resume normal timed functions, or should I leave off the UVB?

 

[Kajolic]

This morning he was in the same spot, but like the second to last photo (expect perkier), he was up trying to see out the window. After sitting him in his basking spot, and he did his normal body puff/bear stretch. After about an hour he showed little interest in food, offered two Wax Worms to give him something light/fatty if it is in fact the start of brumation, he was only interested in one. Also, weight this morning remained at 379g, so far no bowel movement.

Right now he is in his rock basking location, looking around like he is rather interested in he surroundings, but I know here in about 3-4 hours he'll be back in his warm/cool side hides around 4-5pm.



I know this is a wall o' text, but anything to set worries aside or first hand information regarding the possibility of brumation would be greatly appreciated. Don't want to do something wrong, to unintentionally stop feeding or ignore a warning sign of something that is problematic.

Thanks.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

He looks great with very nice colors, too.
His weight has been holding stable right now which is a good indication of over all health. Since he is not losing weight, I doubt he has worms or parasites. How long ago did he have the coccidia treatment?
If he is in the all clear, then I would say you can let him go into brumation. At his age, he likely wont be in for very long & it will probably be intermittent anyway.
Since this is his first brumation & he is under one year, he probably is not real sure what to do either but just knows he wants to slow down. This is very normal & happens quite often to the younger ones & is often mistaken for something else.

Do his fat pads on his head, hamstrings, & under his arms look good?
Let him slow down on his eating naturally. You can continue to offer him veggies & greens since they are easy to digest. If he doesn't eat any feeders then that is ok too. As long as he is maintaining his weight, he will be fine. Who knows, maybe the Reptisun 10 will help out a little bit.
The first brumation is the hardest because a lot of times you aren't sure what to do at first. I found out the hard way & really stressed out my dragon trying to keep him out of brumation at 6 months. If they are healthy & want to brumate then it is a good idea to go ahead & let them. Otherwise, you can cause more harm than good.


Tracie

 

[Kajolic]

Took him in on suspension of Coccidia on 7/25/2012 and he came back positive. Vet gave me 5 days straight of (if I remember the measurements right) .4ml of Ponazuril that she diluted and measured in 5 different syringes. On the 10th day she had me bring in a fresh stool sample for testing, and it came back negative, that was on the 8/3/12. During this time I did a full Ammonia 10% dilute clean out, as well as soaking/baking of decor. Cleaning him up, and the spot where/when he would poop. So just under a month ago (didn't seem that long ago.)

I'll PM you a couple of photos and a video if it helps with the fat stores question. To me he seems a little on the thin side.

I'll continue to offer his salad, minus the berries and so forth, since I would imagine they wouldn't be as easy to digest.
UVB light comes Tuesday or Wednesday this week, so we'll see if he perks up.

Should I keep on mimicking the sun light outdoor with the lights in his Viv, or reduce them more and place the cloth cover on his cage earlier in the day?


[Edit] - It's 7PM, I had to leave the house at 4pm, come home and he is still laying in the front-left log by the front of the Viv awake, but you could tell he is ready for sleep. Salad was dug into a bit, maybe 1/4th at best of a 4x5" shallow bowl.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

It sounds like he is very sleepy indeed!
You can shorten his days to an 8 hour day if you would like, leaving both lights on for him, just in case he wants to bask.
Since he is not eating much right now, he wont be using up much energy either.
He is in the clear for his fecal exam, too. I think he will be fine going into brumation. Your video was great, his hamstrings look good & so do the pads on his head. You could just make sure he is well hydrated so he goes into brumation with a good hydration status.

He is such a little cutie!

Tracie

 

[Kajolic]

Thank you for your replies, my mind is at ease (for now)

I'll set the timer to go off earlier in the afternoon when he starts to settle down, give him a chance for undisturbed sleep.

He takes well to water from a syringe. Want made the Coccidia treatments so easy, never had to trick him into it, or mask it in food. However he in stubborn to open his mouth on request. I remember laughing a bit when our vet tried to check his teeth and mouth. She had the hardest time in trying to get it him submit, but finally did after trying the pinch the skin and pull down under the chin trick.


This morning he slept in the same spot all night, but when the lights came on he retreated to his cave hide. But after putting his salad in he ate a few bits it seems, and is just sitting half out of his hit looking at the window :lol: Him and that bloomin' window...

 

[Kajolic]

Just an update. He is holding true at 379g, keeping him hydrated well. He hasn't touched his greens in days, so I only offer a little bit now, tired of seeing all to waste since I don't have live feeders atm to consume it. He also doesn't want to bask at all, so I cut all but one basking light to stay on from ~9am to 3pm, give him some sense of day, and I keep his curtain closed on the front to block out the room activity and room lights. In the morning I wake him to weight and socialize for a bit, he'll stay up for about an hour (and still be interested in that window, haha) and then he'll go back into a hide to sleep.

Just glad he's doing okay, but he still seems confused on why he's so tired. :lol: But you could tell he was wanting to fight it today, he wanted that window so bad, but he could help that instinct to hide and sleep.


Friday, September 7th - Woke up to him standing at the front of the cage waiting for me to pull the curtain off so he could look at the window. This was after a long 3 day sleep, looks like he wanted to be up by himself this go around. Turned his light up from the lower levels I had them on, and flipped the UVB light on to see if he will stay out or retreat back to his hide in a "Just Kidding! I'm still gonna Brumate. See ya, bye."

 

[Kajolic]

I'm going to post this question here instead of bringing up a new thread.

The past two days to a week Dovah has been acting like he was before going into Brumation. I posted that on viewtopic.php?f=6&t=177538 about him eating really well for awhile, but then refusing food again for nearly a week.
I am curious if he brought himself out of Brumation and by me bolstering that by turning his lights back on to normal timers, if he is trying to go back in Brumation. Curious on your thoughts.

Thanks.

 

[vampy]

Different dragons do brumation differently. Some are pretty much totally out for 3 months, some sleep for a week, have a couple of days of activity, then go back to sleep again.

There's some experiences in the brumation article here, and more in this thread.

 

[Kajolic]

Yeah he's pretty much in sleep mode again. I'll have to bring him out for a bath tomorrow. I know he still has a raspberry and maybe two blueberries on the stomach because that is the only thing he ate from his salad roughly 4 days ago, so I'm going to see if he moves it out in the bath. Lights back to where they were for the first two weeks, so we'll see how he goes from here and if he decides to be up staring at me at the glass doors like he did last time, lol.



[Edit] - I don't get this little guy. I got him out for a bath, but when I put him back in with basking bulbs on only, he didn't retreat to his hides, so I flipped the UVB light on to see how he'd react. Needless-to-say he is up and about again.

So I put some greens in, didn't want to feed him any feeders if he decides, yet again, to go into a 2-4 days sleep.

[Edit] - Nov. 5th - Little guy is in a deeper brumation, and has been for some time. I've been keeping him warm and with his towels covering him if he decides to sleep outside of his normal hides. I have been checking up on him roughly every 6 days to check weight, hydration, etc. Holding steady and is enjoying his slumber to no end. I miss the little guy, hope he comes out of it in time to enjoy some nice snow in January.