Insect Digestion Concern

[Kajolic]

Dovah had a movement today after not having one yesterday. He was shedding so he was acting weird (normal shed activities) as it was, so I didn't put much thought behind it as I looked at it was stress over facial shed. Associated a lack of appetite as such as well. He would still eat, but it would only be ~7-10 crickets to his normal 20-30 per sitting. He had 2 sitting yesterday. As for salad, I failed to offer one from a stressful day at work, and the girlfriend forgot as well. He did accept my water offering via syringe licking it as I produces drops ~1.5ml accepted yesterday.
Today I offered him crickets, he ate 25-30 in a sitting at 11PM, at 2PM I offered him 10 (not dusted) he refused. So concerned, I bathed him in warmer than normal water to see if he would make a movement, massaging his belly as I did when I was concerned over his faux rock incident. He decided not the pass one in the water, but instead waited until he was on his driftwood basking location.
What concerned me further is that he seemed stressed, almost a labored movement towards the end. I only caught a glance at him after he took his poop, but from what I saw it wasn't normal. He stayed in the lifted tail position longer than normal, and defiantly showed his stress marks under his belly, chin, and tail lightly. After he lowered his tail, I checked his underside to make sure it was clean, and let him rest on me, and his stress marks went away, and he was back to his normal hyperness, and put him back in on his basking stones when I cleaned up the excrement.

This is the first time I personally saw any undigested insert parts in Dovah's excrement since/before his vet checkup/fecal test on March 3rd, in which is noticed a cricket leg. I have never noticed a insert part, that was recognizable, in any of his movements and I check them all, except those I miss for a good part of my work day and come home to baked to the tile.

Today I noticed a part of a cricket (I think a leg) and a few parts of a superworm (one head part, and a few body links - shells only)... Understanding the size of crickets to be no longer than the distance between his eyes, I measure 1/2" at the edge of his eye bulge to the other, could stretch it as say 3/4" but I target 1/2" crickets. Also, understand for supers your beardie should be roughly 10" (also read 16"). Supers, I only purchased them since the breeder noted he fed them as a treat to give his beardies a variety in the diet, so since he was handling them I thought best to continue. Sizes range from smaller 1/2" to ~1" in length, and roughly 1/8" at the most on the larger supers, I removed and dispose of the much larger in girth and length, as well as the larger crickets ~3/4" when I clean out the cricket bin so none accidentally get dusted and snatched up before I can remove them from the feeding bin.

I'm not opposed to removing the supers from the diet, actually 99% convinced myself in doing so for his health if he isn't going to digest them properly. Only reason I'm not 100% convinced is because I try to treat him the smaller sized supers with an occasional larger one (1" x 1/8") roughly 2-3/day and he has always digested them just fine. I don't know if him shedding, spending most of his time in the evening running around rubbing his face on everything instead of basking, or if he's just not doing well with them as he has for the past two weeks.

This was the 5th day since it was off of his medication for intestinal parasites the vet gave for to give him .1ml/day. Not sure of any relevance, but wanted to note it nonetheless.




Beardie Info:
Gender: Male
Age: ~18 Weeks
Length: ~11 1/2" (Snout to tail end)
Eye Gap: ~1/2"
Weight: Unknown - Forgot to note from the vet visit

Tank Conditions:
Size: 4'x2'x18" - 89.76 Gal. (Inside: 46.5" x 22.5" x 16.5" - 74.73 Gal.) - 3/4" Melamine
Substrate: Tile
Decor: Driftwood / Slate Basking Pad / Slate Cave/Hide
  (All groomed, nothing he can bite will break off to be ingested.)
Lighting: Timer set for 9AM to 11PM
  36" Repti-Sun 10.0 (no closer than ~6", no further than ~12")
  36" Naturesun (for ambient lighting) 6500k
  x2 35w halogen (for basking) - Dimmer in-use
  x1 50w incandescent (for heating) - Dimmer in-use
  x1 CHE (night use) - Thermostat in-use
Temperatures:
  Basking Location #1 - ~112-114°F -- Basking Location #2 - 109-113°F
  Ambiance - ~96°F around basking side -- ~84-86°F cool side
  CHE - Set to turn on at ~75°F - nighttime only
Humidity: Daytime 33-38% -- Nighttime 43-48% (Old Analog Hygrometer read it at 52-63%, but it wasn't accurate)
Gauges/Tools:
  'All Living Things' Analog Hygrometer (This was the old one mentioned, not in-use)
  Acu-rite Wireless Digital Thermometer with Humidity Indicator - Model #: 00609 (http://goo.gl/OqM46)
  Temperature Gun Infrared Thermometer w/ Laser Sight (http://goo.gl/40umg)
  Zoo Med - Digital Temperature Probe

Feeding Schedule: 10-15 minute sessions
Sat, Sun, Tues, Wed, and Fri - Rep-Cal Calcium w/ D3 (Phosphorus Free)
Mon and Thurs - Rep-Cal Herptivite w/ Beta Carotene - Multivitamins
Crickets at 10/11am - eaten count: 20-30 typically *this is the dusting sitting*
Salad offered (with ~1/8" water, and misted through-out the day for freshness) at ~12/1pm
Crickets offered again at 5/6pm - eaten count: ~15-20 (not dusted)

Insect Menu: ~1/2" Crickets (staple) - Superworms (1/2" to ~1" in length, roughly 1/8" at largest girth) (2-3/day as a treat)
Salad Menu: Collards/Mustard/Turnip Greens - Attempted Kiwi, Green Grape (peeled), Tomatoes (grape sized), diced fresh carrots...neither of which he ate, but tasted and licked his chops a few times over.

Hydration Schedule:
Bath 2-3 times a week, 3-4 when he was shedding (10-15 minutes, or until he chooses else wise)
Water offered in salad bowl (haven't attempted to see if he'll drink from a dedicated water dish yet)
Water offered via syringe 1-2/day - intake amount: ~1.5ml before he has had enough (hopefully I can have him learn to associate it with a water dish in the future)
Misting 2-3/daily

 

[Claudiusx]

Hi there,

First off, I want to say I love how you have all the info anyone could possibly want written down ( I assume you have this written down somehwere in your computer so you can paste it when need be?) That is a great idea and I really think that should be something everyone who owns a beardie should do.

I wouldn't get too worried about it. Irregular poos can happen for the smallest things. You really shouldn't get too worried about it until the strange poo becomes a regular occurence.

Shedding does cause some weird BM's, so that could very well be the cause.

I think your best bet is to just not worry about it, but keep an eye on the poo. If the poo stays strange for about a week, then we can look into some troubleshooting if you will :mrgreen:

You have two basking spots... Does your dragon bask in the one that is 109-113 the most? Does he bask often or is he often on the other side? I don't know if its an option but I would try to get your basking temps lower. You don't really want to go over 110 in any of your basking spots.

One more thing, I think you are going a little bit overboard on the hydration. The baths 3-4 times a week alone are good enough. You don't need to offer water via syringe or mist. Actually, my beardies hate being misted, and I don't do it for fear of increasing risks of URI's (not sure how much truth there is to that practice)

-Brandon

 

[Kajolic]

HAHA, actually typed all information by memory (and having everything out on my computer desk right now :wink but about the only thing I have logged is the growth rate to see on paper his progress! :lol: Did copy/paste it into Word because FireFox LOVES to crash on me on long posts, or anything I am doing for that matter. I should save the info somewhere, would cut down on the ~15 minutes it took to type out and make sure I didn't leave out too much information.

I'll defiantly dial back the basking lights to ~110°F. I've been reading 110-115°F for younglings, and with him getting to 5 months I was going to start seeing when you'd want to lower the basking temp.
His habits are to bask more the driftwood, which is more towards the middle of the Viv. I feel it's habit partly due to the fact for 5-6 days he had that and a box hide after I had to remove his faux rocks after he had gotten use to them (and tried to eat them), so I had to prep/construct his replacement slate decor. He does go over to his basking rock (which is on the warm side,) but not as often...again thinking he's just accustom to the driftwood. That and it is the higher basking temp between the two I have set. The cooler one "(Basking Location #2 - 109-113°F)" being the basking rocks themselves.

*Bulb angles and decor placement have changed since the photo but decor is still located on the same general area.

Hydration wise, I forgot to mention I did cut back on the misting when he started to shed, and gave him an additional weekly bath in place. So that won't be a problem to stop or limit. Questioned it's effectiveness myself. Water syringe offerings, if he is getting enough hydration via the baths/salads, I can stop/limit as well. He does seems to beg for it at times, licking his snout where I use to place a drop of water before the syringe. Usually when I reach in to pet his chin or back. Past week ago or so, I noted his urate was hard and a few times afterwards, usually when he didn't eat a lot of his salad. So that was another reason I started the offering of water by syringe to assure he was getting hydrated. Lately his urates have been alright, not sure if these water offerings attributed to them or not, but willing to trial him to see.

I'll set my worries a side for now, I'll continue my habit of inspecting his excrement whenever I can catch them fresh (usually during my work lunch ... I can still eat afterward too, haha) If I notice anything further in them I'll update, just really caught me off guard, especially after a day without a little present, but he wasn't lethargic by any means, little guy it too hyped up when I'm around, so if anything does slow this guy down, I'll certainly be worried

I will be checking this post as the e-mails notify of a response, so if anyone would like to add to or ask any questions, please post.

 

[Kajolic]

Going to recycle this thread for a different concern.

I was running low on crickets, so I ordered 1000 3 week crickets online from a company in California company. Aside from some partly coming dead/weak, I salvaged what I could and placed them into my newer cricket bin. Allowed them to settle, eat, hydrate, etc. Last night I let him chow down on ~30 crickets, slightly smaller than 1/2" (thought I was ordering bigger, but all is good) and gave him a few small superworms in addition.

This morning he woke up from his sleep, business as usual, he went to his basking spot to warm up and usually feed him about an hour after. After prepping his crickets with a dusting, I went to open the Viv. and he had his beard jet black... Didn't think much of it. Picked him up, placed him into his feeding tote and he was the least bit interested in the crickets... Which is very odd behavior...what is even odder was he refused an offering of a superworm. That and he was more interested in getting back into his Viv. I feed him right outside his Viv on the floor, so he kept looking up/climbing up to it.
I let him rest more inside the tank, his beard still black. Came back to him an hour later, he had left me a present. It was a normal poop, but had no fluid around it as usual, and I've kept him hydrated as listed in the first post but with the suggested alteration to my schedule. Ran it in water to check it out. Urate was good, no insect parts, looked normal.
After cleaning I attempted another feeding, he refused, wanted back into his tank. Tried a single small superworm, he never refused... He refused it... Beard at this point is still black.
Gave him a quick bath to see if this would perk him up, did a bit, he wanted to go towards the window to check out the scenery. I put him back into the tank after 10-ish minutes in the bath, and 5 minutes at the window until he was more interested in the Viv than the window.
At this point I'm noticing him mouth gapping in temperatures he usually doesn't... So I dimmed the bulbs a tad. Now he is just laying around in different locations, laying his head on whatever perch he can see me on.
Noted a small accident on the tile. About a dime size, just a small amount of liquid, and a pinkish white mixture, no hard urate nor any fecal matter. Never seen this before...

Present behavior is he was laying with his head down on his usual chill out location on his driftwood, now he is still there but more perky with his head up looking around with his head as I move. Beard is still dark, but not as jet black.
Just offered a super, he was looking at it like he wanted it, but never made a move for it.


As my concern, did he eat too much? Bad crickets?


[Edit] - Did forget to mention, he is no in the process of shedding his belly and back. Is this just an extreme behavior due to this? I know he acted off with his upper tail, legs, and tail.

 

[Kajolic]

I need to upload a picture with a quick update. He just made a movement, several crickets, and the few small superworms. ***Edit*** He must have thrown up the undigested food.

Tail end is darken more than usual, and he is dry heaving.


On the hold on the phone with the vet now. I have him in a warm bath, I'm rubbing his belly and lower regions and he seems to not be as full bellied as he was this morning, but he is still dry heaving. Color to tail isn't as dark. Beard is back to white with a hint of dark at the base.


Recap from above posts...
Waiting on them to call me back. I'm curious if he just ate too much of these little guys and they were bad... Inside the vomit I see about as many crickets as he ate last night. Did poop normal this morning but didn't have a fluid around it as usual, but had a secondary poop later on that was minimal (just a dime size fluid with a pinkish colored watery urate).
Blackened beard, which is now got. Darkened tail, which is returning color. Lethargic, which is now hyper again wanting to perch upon my shoulder instead of wanting to stay to himself in his Viv.
Giving him a soak in warmer than usual water, rubbing his underbelly. He doesn't feel like he has any food left in him, if impacted, should I feel a hard spot?
Dry heaving after vomiting, so far they have been fewer and fewer.

 

[AHBD]

Poor fellow, he sounds like he just ate too much, or is there a chance that you fed him later than usual so there wasn't enough time to digest ? You should definitely offer water again via syringe, when he's done heaving [ he may vomit again ] he will be very thirsty. When a beardie vomits like that, they usually won't eat a thing for a day or two at least, so you can expect that. He should recover soon though. You might want to cut back on the amount of feeders slightly, or give the small supers at a time when his stomach is not full. Or....just omit them for now.

 

[Kajolic]

Just got back from the vet. He said he probably did eat too much, which I never thought possible for this little guy, he eats everything and a half and handled it so never thought once to myself to keep his intake in check.
Vet noted to hold off on food for two days. I'll leave a light salad in the tank with water if he feels the desire to eat. Said is I wanted to, I could feed him 1-2 just to give him something.

Today I've been offering water via syringe again after I seen there was an absence of fluid in his poop this morning, and he was begging. Licking his snout like he would when I would before.

He gave him a once over to check for any impaction, he didn't feel anything off about him. Also stated he little guy has grown a lot since I was last there, like I was fattening him up for a slaughter. Grim joke, but the way he eats, kinda seems that way, HAHA.

Little guy is back to normal perkiness, right now he's sitting upon my shoulder as we clean out the Viv of his slung around vomit. Normal coloring is back, not even a hint of stress marks...now for me my stress marks are close to permanent :lol:

[Edit] - Just realized I had this thread originally posted in the Health forum... Go go me for not posting it in Beardie ER for my little excitement. Never-the-less, glad he's an okay little buddie, even though I let him eat too much. Time to purchase one of those day a week pill holders to put his allotted food in. :roll:


[UPDATE] - He seems to be pooping normal now. I gave him some greens and left any insects out last evening, he passed plenty of poop with the left over greens and was very hydrated.