Diarrhea. Really Need Help, at a loss

[Mirthy]

Norris has always had well hydrated stools. The urates have been nice and soft and there is usually a bit of liquid with his poo. Starting three days ago though, there has been stool matter in the liquid...ie: diarrhea as well as a very soft ill formed stool and bit of urate. Initially, I thought it was because he had an extra big amount of summer squash in his salad and because we lightly cook it in the microwave...so I gave him salad with just a little nibble of squash uncooked but he had even more diarrhea. Three times yesterday. It didn't effect his appetite at all. He had a full salad and 60+ crickets as well as a couple commercial pellets as a treat. Today he had two more diarrhea episodes. I still gave him salad minus anything but his usual greens. (collard, dandelion, and turnip) He ate about half and only 11 crickets. That is waaay down from his usual day's meal. He is pre shed on his tail and back legs and he has gotten grumpy from that in the past but coupled with the continuing diarrhea, I'm very concerned. As it is the weekend, it's going to be another day before we can even contact our vet.

We normally give Norris a bath every other day or so. I gave him one today with pedialyte. (1 part pedialyte to two parts water) and also got him to drink a little water/pedialyte/fruit juice mixture just to try to hydrate him. To my eyes he looks dehydrated. Yesterday, he looked so very fat and fit and today with an empty belly he looks so wrinkled!!

If anyone has any suggestions on how to help keep him hydrated or lessen his diarrhea, please let us know! I could kick myself for not calling the vet immediately but I thought for certain it was just too much squash.
Is it possible that he is still passing that squash?


For those of you who don't know Norris, here are his stats and viv set up:
Purchased: July 4th 2011 Approx age 5/6 Months
Length: 15"
Weight: 159 Grams (digital kitchen scale)
Type: Normal scale mutt dragon from petsmart

Viv: 5' x 18" x 2'
UVB: reptisun 10 tube, mounted inside/ side mount in position with basking light.
Basking Lamp: GE Reveal 65 watt - white indoor flood
Night time heat: ceramic heat emitter
Substrate: tile
Humidity: 16% -Acurite digital gauge
Basking temp: 103-108 along his branch He is usually at the cooler end. - acurite digital w/ probe
Cold side temp: 79-80F - acurite digital gauge
Night time temp: 79-80


EDIT: I had a fecal done on him a couple months back that came back negative for eggs and worms. I'm not sure how he would have gotten parasites but it seems like that might be what is going on.
At the time, I had a feeling that they may have only checked for pinworms? They only charged me $17 for the test even though they quoted me $35 on the phone. (which I thought was completely reasonable. $35-$50 seems to be normal) I didn't get paperwork from the test, just a phone call...so when I can contact the vet on Monday I'll make certain and get another fecal done.

 

[greathouseFarm]

I would definitely call the vet on that info from the last fecal.

BUT... I would not worry too much just yet. Did the stool stink to high heaven? If it does than it's time to de-worm.

It sounds like he may have had a nice pass of roughage and lost a little bit of water. I would offer him the pedialyte diluted with a syringe or dropper as well as keep up the baths tomorrow. Other than that it doesn't sound like much more then irritable bowels. Keep his temps comfy and warm and keep his diet stable and normal.

Hope that helps.

 

[Mirthy]

Thank you for the reply.
He lives to make me worry. I'll keep going on then with the baths and the pedialyte then. He was licking it off his nose but not from the syringe. I'm not sure how much I got into though.
It's the timing of his not eating...which could be his preshed. Of all his pre-shed spots, his tail seems to make him the grumpiest..beats me why.
Thanks again. We really appreciate the input!

 

[MissT]

Carrie, I had the same thing with Huff last night but, there was no real smell at all. Just a HUGE poop with liquid around it that was slightly 'brown' and icky LOL! His stool had split in 2 and I figured that between him going and me finding it, the liquid had become 'infected' with the poop! I dont know though. I have been trying to get another fecal sent for him but im still waiting for pots and submission forms for them (I send away my own - vet changes way too much for the same thing from the same lab! LOL!)
We have a vet visit coming up within the next week (hopefully) so I may ask the vet about it them but, I dont think his poop analysis is great! Was thinking of starting Huff on reptaid but just not sure about that until I know what is up with him!

 

[Mirthy]

this had a puddle in it, Christina. A brown pool and not at all like his normal stools at all. I think I mentioned it on Norris Notes the first time it happened. He normally poos once a day or every so often once every other day and even less often twice in once day. Usually it is very logical. Extra food, less food, shed..no problem. This is the first time he's ever gone three times in one day and it was really really wet. More water than solids.
I looked all over for bene bac and could only find the mammal kind for sale in our local pet shops. I figured a bit of stomach flora help couldn't hurt...I have one more store I'll try tomorrow. (it was closed by the time we thought of it)
anyway, I've talked about poop too much. I think there is a word limit on poop talk.
I just want to keep him hydrated and comfortable until he can get another fecal and a vet apt. and if he gets all better before then, all the better!

 

[MissT]

If you can't get benebac, try soy yoghurt. That works ok too for settling any stomach issues.
Also, just thinking, Norris has been moving into his new viv so it's possible his coccidia level has been elevated which would cause diarrhea... If that's the case then it *should* go back down on it's own provided you keep everything SUPER clean!
Hope Norris is feeling better soon!

 

[Mirthy]

Hi again, Christina
That is a very good point. He wasn't showing stress marks and we did it so gradually over the week that he was starting to fight going back into his old viv. In fact, I tried offering him food yesterday in his old viv yesterday to see if that would help his appetite but he just gave me the stink eye and went to the glass to look for the way out. But any change is stress and you are probably right on the money. We've been steaming the tiles and tank decorations he poos on anyway, so all in the regular scheduled. I steamed out his bath / bath rock last night. I usually just put it in it's own dishwasher cycle with his other dish-washable things. I am pretty sure that gets em hot enough.
Sorry I took so long getting back to you. I fell sound asleep, finally!

 

[Mirthy]

Just a quick update: Norris ate a little bit more today. Still not his normal amount. His tail did finally start to shed. He didn't go diarrhea but he also didn't poo at all?? Occasionally, he will miss a day. He is still young enough to be a daily pooper. I'm just going to guess that he totally cleaned himself out over the last couple of days and with yesterday's meal being so light, he just didn't have anything to gift.

He ate a bit more than half a salad, about 34 crickets and nine dubia nymphs today...about half or a little less than half of what he normally eats on an average day. That's still a lot better than the 11 crickets from yesterday. I am going to say that the tail shed really played a big part in the appetite loss. The diarrhea might be unrelated or mostly unrelated.

Thanks again everyone!
Carrie

 

[Mirthy]

HI folks,
Another update
just got back from the vet. He said that over all Norris was one of the healthiest beardies that he's ever seen. So that's a compliment for everyone on the board!!
We are doing another fecal and will be waiting on that so I'll keep you posted. Norris was a trouper. He slept the whole way there in a towel burrito and had his happy colors on for the vet who was probably wondering why in the world we were there!?

 

[Mirthy]

Hi everyone, another update:
Got the fecal results back from the vet today: No eggs, no worms. I was so certain that somehow Norris had picked up a parasite. Smelly stool, runny diarrhea...parasite? nope.

Right now Norris is acting completely normal. He eats and is alert. He basks and does all his usual dragon activities. Since he isn't showing any other sign of illness the vet is going to look at his diet to see if he might be reacting poorly to some part of it. Plan B is this. We limit his food moderately and add in foods slowly...hopefully giving his digestive tract a break and looking for the culprit at the same time. Yesterday he got a salad of just collard greens and he had half the crickets he would normally eat. He didn't poop at all?! Some times he does miss a day so we are waiting to see if it is better formed than the day prior which was VERY watery with even the urate just a mess.

That's about it. Any insight is welcome This has been going on for well into two weeks now. Amazingly, he is still gaining weight. Go Norris! He was 199 grams last night just a bit over 16"

 

[Mirthy]

Hi there
Week three and Norris still has diarrhea.
I've been trying to swap in and out the normal items of his diet to see if any of them might be causing him stomach irritation and reducing general food intake a bit at the advice of the vet to give his digestive system a break. Now I have a hungry lizard with diarrhea

I'm not convinced that Plan B is doing the trick. We did several days of reduced food and alternated to see if anything seemed to be making the matter worse. It seems inconclusive. He was worse today after only having dubia yesterday but on other days when he's had dubia and salad, he was much better(soft unformed mush). I've tried cutting out various veggies and alternating with crickets and dubia which are the only live feeders we have right now. I feel like it should be a longer test to truly say if it is one thing or another. Say a week of only crickets and then a week of only dubia, etc...but I worry about his weight.
Right now, despite having diarrhea for three weeks (!!!) he is still doing pretty good. He is reasonably active. He is alert and has his head up often. His appetite is really good for Norris... I don't want to mess any of that up.

Sometimes the urate is formed and it is only the rest of the poo that is water, other times it is all mush or swampy.
I'm not really certain what to do at this point. It seems like another vet visit is in order but I'm not sure what to expect when I go or what could even be the culprit. Does anyone have any ideas???
I'm also worried that the constant diarrhea will deprive him of the nutrients that he needs to stay healthy. Not sure how to safely combat that on this semi long term basis...
Carrie


PS: Yes, I have poo pictures but it's just a mostly formed urate surrounded by a sea of liquid splatter and I figure your imaginations can fill that one in

 

[MissT]

Hi Carrie, I sent a longer PM. I think he needs some consistency in his diet. That seems to be helping with Huff a little... His had been getting quite bad. Hope things sort themselves out soon!!!

 

[Mirthy]

Hi folks,
Firstly, THANK YOU for taking the time to read this. I am at a loss. I'm not even sure how concerned to be at this point...is this a serious health problem or just a pain?
Norris is still having problems with Diarrhea. This has been going on for well over a month, coming up on two! It happens roughly once a day. Sometimes he misses a day and some days he goes twice (once three times!).
His poop is stinky and loose at best. Our first thought was parasites. He has tested clean for eggs and worms TWICE now. His viv specs are in my original post and the only real change has been to get smoother tiles because his nails were wearing down too quickly. Norris gained nearly 4 grams a day for the last ten days and is growing (a little slower) length-wise as well, so it doesn't seem to be affecting his growth. (he is around 7 months old and 18 1/2", 325 grams) He is active. He likes to explore and bask and, obviously, eat lots.
At the vet's advice, I tried rotating out his usual foods to see if any of them were causing the problems. In addition, he had me cut back his meals a bit to "let his digestive system relax" There didn't seem to be any real change so I decided to simplify his diet a bit. He has been eating collard greens with dandelion greens with a dab of butternut squash every day for the past month.(trust me, that's simplified...I love making dragon salads) Those are his three favorite foods and I know they are all supposed to be really good for him. His proteins are crickets and dubia which are fed on juvie dragon pellets (crushed) Some days his poop almost seems normal....mostly formed but with a lot of water like he was super hydrated...but then other days (and far more often) it is just a liquid mess. Oddly, the urate is more often still shaped.

Norris often gets very active before he poops. I'm not sure if he is just looking for the right spot or it's starting to hurt him. He does a bit of glass dancing and runs around the viv.
Is he eating too much salad? Is that possible? If it isn't parasites, is there something else I can have my vet check for? Some kidney function or disease that someone has heard of? I'm worried that, like in humans, this constant diarrhea will cause him to lose important nutrients faster than we can replace them.

As I mentioned, his viv stats are all on my first post. Here is his most recent picture.

that log is currently drying after a good scrub because of this problem. We have extra tiles now so we can swap them out for the ones that are daily drying so we don't raise his humidity levels because they have to be cleaned every day. So it's a big pain for us...I'm sure it's a worse one for our poor dragon.

Thank you again for your suggestions and advice,
Carrie

EDIT: I don't know if it is even needed but here is a photo of one of his messes.

 

[pyffersnpaws]

poor guy... I saw you said you have a reptisun 10.0... do you know how old it is? also, how close can he get to it?

 

[Mirthy]

Thanks for the response.
The bulb we are using now is not quite 3 months old. On his basking spot he's easily in the 6-8" range. You can see the tube at the top of the picture I posted. It runs 3/4 the length of his viv so even when he is on the ground, he's getting better uvb then most. : ) We made his viv ourself so we could really work those lights. Lately, we've had a problem with him jumping at it. He's at that sort of crazy stage. He jumps at the side vents, too. If it weren't for this continuing problem, it's like he is completely healthy. But you know how these guys can hide their problems. Oh, speaking of...He doesn't hide under things either. He's always been a big time basker. The only thing I can come up with regarding lighting is that even though I keep his basking area at the proper temps, he will often edge to a slightly cooler area where my temp gun says it is closer to 98-103F which is on the low side for a young dragon. I just caught him facing himself away from the uvb and swapped him around (just in case) he gave me the most confused look!