Female acting different NEW UPDATE 10-6-08

[Camel413]

A little back ground. I have had my male for about a year and a half. I got my female in June and she was a year old. They are in different enclosures, male is in 65gal, female in a 50gal breeder. Shortly after getting her she was digging a lot in her cage. One day while i was cleaning it out i found eggs, infertile of course. After she laid them she acted pretty normal untill just recently.

She now head bobs all day, usally has a black beard and is very restless. She has not done any digging yet. All my husbandry has been the same nothing has changed. Same temps, same food, everything.

Also because i know people will ask here is her setup: Basking temps 95-98 taken with a temp gun, cool side 75-80. UVB is reptisun 10.0 bought in june. Bowl movements have been the same as when i got her. Greens consist of collard greens, turnip greens, mustard greens. Every once in a while i give small amounts of kale, carrots, squash, one at a time, not all together. Insects are 5 superworms and about a dozen crickets a day dusted with calcium every day and multivitimins once a week. I currently have a dubias colony going just not able to feed out of it yet. I always give greens first which she loves, then wait about 20-30 minutes then insects, then im off to work.

Lights are on a timer set for 13 hours a day.

Anyone have any ideas on this behavior?

 

[Camel413]

The last few days she seems to be eating a little less. Also her poop is a smaller diameter, if that makes any sense.

 

[diamc]

Hi, sorry no-one has responded to your post. Now that it has been moved from Behavior to here, it should get more attention.

I have some thoughts that I'd like to share. If your female seems restless, has a dark beard most of the time & isn't eating much, it's very possible that she might be eggbound as they can actually lay up to 4 clutches. I think a vet visit to have an xray taken asap would be a good idea.

I did want to ask about the Repti-Sun 10.0 though. Is it a fluorescent or compact bulb & how close is she to this bulb?

With an adult, it's recommended to only feed about 30 large feeders a wk (like superworms) or 50 small feeders a wk (like crickets) because otherwise it can cause kidney and/or liver problems. An adults diet should consist of approx. 80% greens and 20% live food because their bodies don't need so much protein because they aren't any longer growing at a fast rate. I would suggest you cut back the protein gradually on each of them.

An adult should only have their food dusted with calcium with D3 but is phosphorus free, 3 days a wk and with vitamins 1 day a wk, and only 1 feeding a day of each of those, so I suggest you make an adjustment there too.

Are you using bright white basking bulbs & is the UVB right alongside of those bulbs? If not, try placing them next to each other so your beardies can get both benefits at the same time.

You're feeding very good greens, you might also want to offer a few different ones like dandelion, escarole, endive and/or beet greens to keep them interested. I've run across adults getting bored with their greens & changing them around seems to make a difference. You could also try introducing a little fruit once in a while and a favorite here is muskmelon & watermelon. Some beardies like strawberries and raspberries too.

Are you bathing her? If not, that might help perk her up a little. All of our adults love their baths & will even dive under the water. It helps with hydration & also shedding.

If you haven't had her checked for parasites, it would be a good idea to have that done, especially since she may start going into brumation soon as the temperature gets cooler. An xray to check for eggs should be done soon as that can be very dangerous if she is eggbound.

Let us know how things go. Hope you find these suggestions helpful. :wink:

 

[Camel413]

A few answers to your questions: my bulb is the long florecent sp type running the length of the enclosure. Her basking light is a large white spot light type. She is able to be within 8" from the uvb.

I do bath her atleast once a week but usally twice a week. Recently since she has been acting odd i have been giving her a bath about every three days.

I did a parasite check a little while back, she had very smelly runny stools. I have gave 6 doses of panacur, 3 doses, wait 2 weeks then 3 more doses. Also one dose of flagyl on the off week of panacur. I have not been back to the vet to make sure that the stool comes back good, but her stools are MUCH better, they do not smell and is formed good.

I was thinking about it being eggbound but was not sure and had no idea what to do about it. I have tried massaging her belly while in the bath. The vet that i use is not a reptile vet as i do not have one anywhere close to me, but all i have done so far with this vet and my reptiles is their stool samples.

If she is egg bound what do they do? Thanks

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I agree that it is a large possibility of being eggbound. Your tank setup is good, no problems there.
If her appetite is becoming less that is also another indication of her either getting ready to lay again, or, she is having some trouble. Since you mentioned that her beard was black off & on, that shows some stress on her part or some discomfort.

As far as a regular vet doing an x-ray, that is fine. A regular x-ray will show if there are eggs forming, or where exactly they are located. However if there are just follicles forming, an x-ray wont show them. You will have to have an ultrasound done if they are just follicles because they have not developed yet & are still soft.

Eggbinding is somewhat complicated. If she is eggbound, there are several reasons why she could be. An irregular shaped egg, low hormones, poor muscle tone, low calcium, uterus problems. There is a drug oxytocin, that can be given to induce labor, but it can only be used in cases of post ovulatory stasis. This condition is where the eggs have already been through the shelling gland & have dropped & are ready to be laid, but are having trouble.
If she is in pre ovulatory stasis, then, the eggs are not developed yet & have not dropped so this hormone is contraindicated & should not be used because inducing labor at that time is very dangerous.

The only other procedure that could be done if labor is not successfully induced, is for surgery to be performed & for her to have her eggs removed. Alot of times, if she has trouble this time, unless you are going to breed her, she may be prone to having problems & they remove the ovaries too so she wont have anymore problems in the future. However, that is just an option, you don't have to spay her unless you feed it is necessary. She may not have anymore problems, it is hard to tell.

So, a regular vet would not be good most likely to do any reptile surgery.

Keep us posted on her.

Tracie

 

[Camel413]

OK, got an appointment for tomorrow morning with my regular vet for an Xray.

What kind of time frame am i looking at here. She has been acting strange for about 2 weeks but much worse in the last 4-5 days. The black beards have only been for about 4 days.

If she is egg bound and the reptile vet cant get her in for a few days is that gonna be ok?
How long can she be eggbound for "safely" if you know what i mean?

 

[Camel413]

Another question. When i go to my regular vet tomorrow if the xrays do show that she is post ovulatory stasis, can i just get him to give her a dose of oxytocin, or would that best be done by a reptile vet. If he can do it what is the dose per gram.

Thanks again for your help Diane and Tracy.

 

[Camel413]

Ok, i went to the vet today and he took an xray and said that there was definitely eggs. He said that he did not know if she was eggbound or not. I told him that if there was eggs showing up on the xray then it was safe to prescribe oxytocin. He did not know the dose but said that it was a relatively safe drug. He gave me 5 syringes at a dose of 0.1cc. He said to give this to her 2-3 times a day and he gave her the first dose there in the office.

I was thinking that was a large dose and i am not going to give anymore until i hear something from a more exprierenced keeper. So far with the one dose nothing different as of today.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Ok, well, good you found out there were eggs. She has been having trouble for awhile.
We can go ahead & start the Oxytocin, but if it does not work within 24-48 you should take her back in. There is a small window there & if she is truly having problems & the hormone is not enough to induce labor, then she is most likely suffering from an obstruction of an irregularly shaped egg or other ovarian problem that will need surgery most likely.
The dosage normally used for reptiles for Oxytocin is anywhere from 1-10 IU/kg, but doses as low as 1 IU/kg are used more routinely & are effective. The most average dose used for most species is 2 IU/kg. It is usually more effective when given within the first 48 hours of dystocia, but it can still help. It is given Intramuscularly or via coelomic cavity.
The measurement equivalents are 1IU = 0.1ml
The dosage would be 1-2IU/kg of bodyweight.
So, the dosage he gave you at 0.1 cc (ml) are safe. Although he did not dose according to weight, that is a pretty safe dosage.
However, the only thing I am concerned with is that the eggs have sufficiently dropped into the oviducts & are ready to be laid. That is the most important thing, it needs to be confirmed exactly where the eggs are positioned & that she is indeed post ovulatory stasis. Otherwise inducing labor too early can harm her. Another thing to consider is she may be trying to drop her eggs down to the oviducts but something is blocking them from doing so.
Usually with the first dosage, you should see some progress pretty quickly, & she should lay if that is the problem.
Can you get her status confirmed? It is important to know for sure before inducing too early.
Also, make sure she is getting oral fluids too.

Please keep me posted on her.

Tracie

 

[Camel413]

I got an appointment for friday morning with a reptile specialist. Im hoping he can get her all fixed back up and back to normal.

 

[diamc]

Hi, that's great that you were able to get an appt with a reptile specialist on Friday. Hopefully they'll be able to get her straightened out. Have you noticed any difference at all, is she still black bearded? Does she eat and move around much?

 

[Camel413]

She did eat some salad today and i gave her 5 supers this morning. She moves around fine. I have let her out to run around the house a few times thinking she might "jog" something loose but no such luck.

No real change in the black beard or head bobbing. When she started the head bobbing about 2 weeks ago my wife and i thought that she was trying to attract the attention of our male. After a week we realized that she never looked at the male when she was bobbing. She was always looking directly at us and head bobbing right at us, like she was trying to say something to us.

How long can a female be eggbound for before things get really bad and they die. I feel so bad since its going on the 3rd week now and im just now getting her some help. Im sure shes in pain and dont feel good.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Great you have an appointment for friday (today). Please let me know how it all goes!
Good to hear that she is eating a bit however. Some supers & salad is a good meal for her. Is her belly dragging the floor?
You are exactly right. She was trying to tell you something & that was her way of communicating. I am sure she isn't feeling real good, but at least she ate.
It is hard to put a timeframe on things, but after a month, I would say things start to become risky because if something is blocking her up & she cannot pass them, they will back up into her oviducts & into her colon, & begin to clog everything up making it impossible for her to function. She could possibly have an egg burst or rupture inside of her causing hemorraghing & infection possibly.
It is good you are taking her in now. I hope for the best & will be anxious to hear from you.

Tracie

 

[Camel413]

Got back from the vet not great news but not all bad.

He told me that some reptiles have a fertility problem. Apperently he said that she was TOO fertile for her own good, to put it bluntly. He said that she had way to many eggs in her. She was NOT eggbound but had so many eggs that it was putting pressure on her organs. This was making her not seem as hungry and would explain the smaller diameter poop because of the pressure on the intestines. He showed me the xray and explained where the eggs were supposed to be and how there was so many that they was on the other side also.

He gave me 3 options, first option, take her home and she would probably live 6 months (not an option for me). Second option put her down (again NOT an option for me). Third option was to do surgery and spay her. He said that he would HAVE to spay her because this would just keep happening. I asked about just removing the eggs and he said that he would not open her up to get the eggs without spaying her also.

I told him that i had planned on breeding her next spring, but i guess things change.

I am getting her spayed next tuesday.

I would love to hear your take on this although by the way he explained it this was the only thing to do. This was the first time i had been to this vet but he was a specialist and really seemed to know what he was talking about.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,
Oh hon, that is too bad. Wow too many eggs pushing on her organs. Well yeah, that would pretty much do it.
Most of the time, if they have fertility problems initially, they will most likely continue to have them which is hard on them in the coming years.
I am glad that she is not eggbound however, but, there are so many eggs that she wont be able to pass them all. Personally, I think that spaying is going to be the best option unfortunately.
Yeah the options of just taking the eggs out would not be for the best. She has over active ovaries, so removing the eggs is the best option. Then, removing the ovaries is the only option for her. She will live a long life after that without having the stress of fertility problems.
I am sorry this happened. I do agree with the vet's decision, especially if her entire abdomen is filled with that many eggs.
There is one other option but it is not a commonly used practice. Sometimes, there has been some use of birth control on reptiles to control in order to help suppress ovulation. You could mention that to him, but I think for longterm, spaying is going to be your best option to ensure she wont have anymore complications.
I am happy that you went ahead & got her in for tuesday. Definitely keep me posted on her.

Tracie