would this be ok to feed to my roaches?

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jasond02

Member
Thought about taking some fish and dehydrating it on my dehydrator and then grinding it in a grinder. Would that be safe for my roaches to eat? I know fish is high in protein.
 

Taterbug

BD.org Addict
Sounds like a lot of work to me. Not sure it would harm them but it doesn't make much sense to feed it to me. I'd rather feed fresh produce, alfalfa pellets (good source of protein) and maybe some grains than any animal proteins.

If anything fish has a dismal Ca:p ratio so you'll be doing yourself no favors as a gutload.
 

Sauzo

Sub-Adult Member
Would probably be fine but remember, whatever your roaches are eating, your pet is eating. So my rule of thumb is my breeder bin gets pretty much anything and my feeder bin gets only stuff I want my beardie to eat.
 

icelore

Juvie Member
jarich":3rfaemxy said:
Roaches do not need high protein diets, they are adapted to very low protein diets.
That's pretty much directly opposite of the advise of the dubia threads on this forum.
 

jarich

Juvie Member
icelore":1gv5kw5o said:
jarich":1gv5kw5o said:
Roaches do not need high protein diets, they are adapted to very low protein diets.
That's pretty much directly opposite of the advise of the dubia threads on this forum.

I'm not really sure what to say about that. Like all creatures, they have a natural history, and it is fairly easy to look up. They live in environments where animal proteins are scarce, and so are adapted to low protein diets. They subsist on diets as low as 4% protein, but it seems from research that between 12-18% is best. In nature, when they come across a carcass or some other high protein source, they actually store the extra protein they eat in the form of elevated uric acid blood levels. That way, when they do not have access to protein again, they are actually able to synthesize it from the stored uric acid. It's a rather amazing adaptation really. However, if you continuously feed them high protein, they continue to store more and more uric acid. If fed this high protein diet quickly enough and consistently, like say giving them just wet cat food, it will actually start to crystallize in their bodies and kill them. No one has really done any testing on the ramifications of feeding such high uric acid level roaches on reptiles that I know of, but I'd be cautious if the reptile in question were already dehydrated or had any type of organ stress/damage.
 

icelore

Juvie Member
Oh, I'm not saying that they can't live on low protein diet. But people on the forum aren't keeping roaches as pets and trying to recreate their natural habitat. They are keeping them as feeders and as such as gutloading them to produce the best outcome for their reptile, which would be feeding them a relatively high protein diet as well. Obviously super high protein can result in uric acid build up, but that's relatively moot as it's beyond the point of the generally recognized roach diet.
 

Taterbug

BD.org Addict
I think protein is touted more to make fast growing and fast reproducing roach colonies, rather than healthy feeders. I think it's breeding females that need the most protein and roaches will actually self-select food based on their needs. However, offering a high protein homogenous diet - the whole colony needs to eat that way.... I've not heard of gut-loading for protein. It's been my understanding it is more for the roaches benefit.

It's just my opinion, but It would seem that uric acid should be a concern - just as much as any other constituent of the food nutrition. Dragons seem surprisingly susceptible to gout, why would we want our feeders potentially accumulating uric acid if it's not necessary? If we could avoid it and not really loose out on anything, why wouldn't we?

My colony does great on leftover produce and rabbit pellets (should have been alfalfa but grabbed the wrong bag). Since I switched off of chicken feed and water crystals they have actually been doing better. It easier and cheeper to feed that way too, maybe it's slower to reproduce - but I really don't need high output.
 

jarich

Juvie Member
icelore":v1wvkm9o said:
Oh, I'm not saying that they can't live on low protein diet. But people on the forum aren't keeping roaches as pets and trying to recreate their natural habitat. They are keeping them as feeders and as such as gutloading them to produce the best outcome for their reptile, which would be feeding them a relatively high protein diet as well. Obviously super high protein can result in uric acid build up, but that's relatively moot as it's beyond the point of the generally recognized roach diet.

No that's what I'm saying, it doesn't produce the best feeder at all. Gut loading with protein is not useful. All insects, no matter which one, have more than the nutritional protein requirements of lizards. So gut loading with protein would be not only useless, but also somewhat dehydrating as proteins require more moisture to process. Then add to that the increased uric acid content of a roach fed a high protein diet, another dehydrating factor, and you start to see why high protein diets are a bad idea for roaches meant to be feeders. How is it moot if it has the potential to effect the lizard eating it negatively?
 

icelore

Juvie Member
jarich":1fvkrqot said:
No that's what I'm saying, it doesn't produce the best feeder at all. Gut loading with protein is not useful. All insects, no matter which one, have more than the nutritional protein requirements of lizards. So gut loading with protein would be not only useless, but also somewhat dehydrating as proteins require more moisture to process. Then add to that the increased uric acid content of a roach fed a high protein diet, another dehydrating factor, and you start to see why high protein diets are a bad idea for roaches meant to be feeders. How is it moot if it has the potential to effect the lizard eating it negatively?
We could quibble about "high protein," but let's be honest, the word "high" is subjective. I don't know anyone who is advocating a diet so high in protein that uric acid build up is an issue, which is why I stated that I believe it isn't exactly a point of high importance. If you want to post a definitive magic number or percentage of a specific protein given in an overall diet that you feel is dangerous, feel free, I'm sure there are many people who would be interested in that. My initial comment was simply that a dubia diet that is high in protein is what is generally accepted and perpetuated on this forum, as well as what many people sell as their chow mix.

In an effort to not continue to hijack this person's thread any further, the only thing that I can suggest is that you go over to the "catch all" dubia care thread entitled For all the dubia know it alls! and share your knowledge over there, as it is a general "how to" that I know a lot of people look to for info. If you have contradictory information that can benefit people, that would be the place to put it.
Twobeardieguy":1fvkrqot said:
Okay! I just want to start off and say there is a ton of people giving off wrong info about dubia roaches. I am sorry for yelling here but I need people to know the truth.
...
11. Do feed a very high diet consisting of protein!
 

jarich

Juvie Member
icelore":2l17w4iz said:
jarich":2l17w4iz said:
No that's what I'm saying, it doesn't produce the best feeder at all. Gut loading with protein is not useful. All insects, no matter which one, have more than the nutritional protein requirements of lizards. So gut loading with protein would be not only useless, but also somewhat dehydrating as proteins require more moisture to process. Then add to that the increased uric acid content of a roach fed a high protein diet, another dehydrating factor, and you start to see why high protein diets are a bad idea for roaches meant to be feeders. How is it moot if it has the potential to effect the lizard eating it negatively?
We could quibble about "high protein," but let's be honest, the word "high" is subjective. I don't know anyone who is advocating a diet so high in protein that uric acid build up is an issue, which is why I stated that I believe it isn't exactly a point of high importance. If you want to post a definitive magic number or percentage of a specific protein given in an overall diet that you feel is dangerous, feel free, I'm sure there are many people who would be interested in that. My initial comment was simply that a dubia diet that is high in protein is what is generally accepted and perpetuated on this forum, as well as what many people sell as their chow mix.

In an effort to not continue to hijack this person's thread any further, the only thing that I can suggest is that you go over to the "catch all" dubia care thread entitled For all the dubia know it alls! and share your knowledge over there, as it is a general "how to" that I know a lot of people look to for info. If you have contradictory information that can benefit people, that would be the place to put it.
Twobeardieguy":2l17w4iz said:
Okay! I just want to start off and say there is a ton of people giving off wrong info about dubia roaches. I am sorry for yelling here but I need people to know the truth.
...
11. Do feed a very high diet consisting of protein!

I already stated the percentage that is recommended twice now in this thread, up to 18%. It is not subjective, but rather has been studied quite definitively. And yes, there are many who wrongly advocate a much higher percentage that does cause uric acid build up, such as cat food (30-40%), dog food (most around 22-28%) or fish food (42-48%). So, if that is something that is being asked about, like it was here on this thread, then I will offer up the knowledge that such high protein is both not needed and not beneficial. If you would like to question it, Im more than happy to go through with you why this information may be important. However, after I have explained it all in detail, its a little disingenuous to say Im quibbling and should stop posting on a thread. You questioned me, not the other way around. I simply explained why what I said was true, in good detail, and tried to help you understand the science behind it. Ill post it in the thread you mentioned as well, in an effort to cover as many bases as possible.
 

diamc

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
This discussion has gotten off track since the original question was about dehydrating fish so rather than hijacking the thread any further, please try to just answer the question and let the further discussion on whether a high protein diet is healthy or not be posted in another Feeder thread.
 
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