VenusAndSaturn":34qjyyqc said:Yes, 8 year old me killed two dragons because I put one on sand for about 5-10 minutes before returning it to its home and then another dragon was put on sand for its entire life with me which was about 5 years. They both died of impaction.
But thats what happens when you listen to stupid people as a kid, you think they're the ones with the information, your parents think they're telling the truth but the next thing you know you have a dying dragon in your hands after returning home from school and you can't do anything to help it because it's already too far gone.
No one should have to experience that, no matter your age you should not experience something that you could have avoided.
I'm lecturing you because you should not risk something that can happen so easily. Its not worth it to risk a living things life just because you think that substrate is what your beardie needs when its not.
VenusAndSaturn":16lyzgpr said:The thing is though, just because you guys decided to risk your beardies lives and health why should we have a new owner do the same and then have them potentially watch as their dragon dies in their hands? No one should have that happen to them when cause of death could have been avoided.
Post by Tarbie » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:33 am
Where is the risk?
As I said, Tony neither eats, nor poops in his viv. The sand gets changed every few months, and I'd change it straight away in the unlikely event that he pooped in it. Don't get me wrong, wouldn't have dreamt of using sand as a substrate when he was a baby.
Also worth bearing in mind that I live in Africa. We don't have Petco or anything like that, and our choice of supplies here is extremely limited.
Dunno where you get "little or no experience" from either. We've raised Tony since he was a hatchling without any serious health problems, and we research a lot. Me and my wife have also both kept reptiles before.
So yeah, maybe "pretty stupid" in your eyes. In reality, we've got a happy healthy beardie who's doing just fine thanks!
Also there are still risks, just because you don't feed him inside the viv doesn't mean he's not slowly building sand up in his stomach every time he licks something. Why even put a beardie on something they are not supposed to live on? Why does anyone still think that any desert species lives on a pile of sand in the wild?
Maybe you guys didnt research enough as impaction, prolapses, fungal infections, scale rot, joint issues, eye infections and bacteria breeding will still happen even when theres correct care. Even if he doesn't poop in his substrate theres still quite a bit of bacteria in that litter box that he's living in.
Post by dezismom » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:48 am
he key is, use the calcium sand, not colored, and keep it clean and dry.
Calcium sand? Thats even worse than normal sand, and I should know I had both my first beardies die on it, the adult lasted a few years before dying and the baby didnt even last a week or so and it was only on it for about 5-10 minutes because we thought it should see the adult enclosure.
Brittany26":2mplcuva said:First and foremost, there is no debate on sand. The case has already been made and BOTTOM LINE it is dangerous. C'mon people, this should be common knowledge by now if you have done your 15 minutes of research. I am tired of seeing children or teenagers on youtube who have their bearded dragon on sand and not even taking the time to research about their "beloved" pet. I have noticed the people on this post who are currently using sand are saying things such as " im not endangering my pet, I would never do that" or saying "I've had mine on sand for years and it's still alive" and these are just not valid reasons. Yeah, congrats, your dragon is alive now, but slowly but surely there is a concrete brick forming inside of their intestines. And best case scenario, lets just say we are in a perfect world and your bearded dragon NEVER licks anything, never poops, or eats in its cage.. well that nice but that still doesn't negate the fact that there is a storm of bacteria that is growing in the sand... Not to mention beardies are already highly susceptible to diseases that are caused by fungus or bacteria.. Also I think someone in the post said their beardy never licks, well I highly doubt you are able to watch it 24/7. But anyway, you would think when people hear the plethora of health risks that sand can give that they would use something else.. heck even go with a bare tank if need be. Is it that they think sand is aesthetically pleasing? I mean it seems like it would be a pain to clean out. Anyway, I am aware my tone here isn't on the nice side, but i'm tired of seeing the amount of people that I do see using sand. I don't know about you guys but I have had my little guy for 2 months now and I already have so much love for him it's unreal. I've had snakes and hamsters before, but this love is much stronger, and I could never imagine risking his life by putting him on sand.
Right, so you've killed 2 Bearded Dragons, and you're lecturing me on how to care for mine?!!
Brilliant! Ha ha
Also this made me cringe. He is sharing something personal with you to wake you up and make you realize sand will kill. Quit deflecting and open your eyes, hopefully you will change your mind.
Matang613":2sidc8e3 said:I'm a new beardie owner, and I don't really have any strong opinions about substrate, but if there truly is any sort of risk involved with loose substrate, then I'm not willing to take it. Especially not with my juvenile. People advocating for loose substrate have definitely been in the minority, in my novice experience. The fact that pet shops advocate for its usage as well does not inspire any confidence in it for me, personally.
You can claim healthy beardies don't get impacted all you want, but the study that Brittany26 provided states otherwise, and I will definitely take a properly controlled study over rote experience. There's a reason we trust allopathic medicine over anecdotally claimed home remedies: because sheer experience is not as valuable as controlled evidence.
Catzo":1p7b6vgr said:But its just not true...
I dont know what I can say to convince you so im going to quote someone from another forum that summed this issue up well.
"The stories about loose substrate being an impaction risk are mostly linked to two main reasons, either the substrate choice is unsuitable for the species, for example using wood chip or corn husk for bearded dragons, or the animal itself isnt properly being cared for, normally meaning improper heating, nutrition or hydration.
Some loose substrates are simply unsuitable for a species because of that animals eating habits and the size of the substrate. Things like wood chips get stuck in their gut and are very difficult to digest, things like corn husk are also difficult to digest and can absorb water and swell causing blockages.
With regards to how care can lead to impaction, if the animal doesnt have proper heat to aid digestion, or a poor diet leading to poor digestive health, then it cant deal with the ingested substrate and pass it through, and water is a huge component to this in terms of how it will soften fecal matter and contribute to the digestive process.
As pointed out already, these animals come from environments where loose bark, pebbles, sand, soil/dirt make up their surroundings, they are evolved to live in that environment. But with that you also have to provide the other environmental factors that go alongside it that their bodies are evolved to function properly within.
With all reptiles, you should be thinking about what their natural environment is like and trying to create something that provides those same factors as best you can, and using a substrate that mimics where they come from is part of that and goes towards enriching their environment and improving their lives.
You can play it safe and give a sterile environment, but there really is no need unless the animal itself has specific conditions and requires some sort of intensive care (be it illness or recovery), loose substrates do not pose a risk AS LONG AS you are properly caring for and providing for the animal, which in itself is a far greater risk to its health if you are not doing things right.
Impaction is a symptom of incorrect care and provision, not a illness caused by "bad" substrates."
The bottom line is- healthy reptile, no impaction risk. Unhealthy reptile, some impaction risk. So if you consider yourself a bad pet owner and believe you are not caring for your beardie properly, do not use sand.
Brittany26":3b8761id said:First and foremost, there is no debate on sand. The case has already been made and BOTTOM LINE it is dangerous. C'mon people, this should be common knowledge by now if you have done your 15 minutes of research. I am tired of seeing children or teenagers on youtube who have their bearded dragon on sand and not even taking the time to research about their "beloved" pet. I have noticed the people on this post who are currently using sand are saying things such as " im not endangering my pet, I would never do that" or saying "I've had mine on sand for years and it's still alive" and these are just not valid reasons. Yeah, congrats, your dragon is alive now, but slowly but surely there is a concrete brick forming inside of their intestines. And best case scenario, lets just say we are in a perfect world and your bearded dragon NEVER licks anything, never poops, or eats in its cage.. well that's nice but that still doesn't negate the fact that there is a storm of bacteria that is growing in the sand... Not to mention beardies are already highly susceptible to diseases that are caused by fungus or bacteria.. Also I think someone in the post said their beardy never licks, well I highly doubt you are able to watch it 24/7. But anyway, you would think when people hear the plethora of health risks that sand can give that they would use something else.. heck even go with a bare tank if need be. Is it that they think sand is aesthetically pleasing? I mean it seems like it would be a pain to clean out. Anyway, I am aware my tone here isn't on the nice side, but i'm tired of seeing the amount of people that I do see using sand. I don't know about you guys but I have had my little guy for 2 months now and I already have so much love for him it's unreal. I've had snakes and hamsters before, but this love is much stronger, and I could never imagine risking his life by putting him on sand.
Right, so you've killed 2 Bearded Dragons, and you're lecturing me on how to care for mine?!!
Brilliant! Ha ha
Also this made me cringe. He is sharing something personal with you to wake you up and make you realize sand will kill. Quit deflecting and open your eyes, hopefully you will change your mind.
The centre of Australia is not all a sand desert , nor is even a small part and the Central Bearded Dragon's natural range see
http://pogopogona.com/content/uploads/w ... e-from.png
,see https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Ul ... !1e1?hl=en
and
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Ca ... !1e1?hl=en
This is typical of central bearded dragon terrain , which includes tropical sevannahs , spinefix grasslands, dry tropical woodlands, and some areas of sandy desert. The most common ground is weathered clay (bull dust).
and
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Ki ... 42c0?hl=en
that's red clayish soil you see NOT sand.
and getting towards the southern extent of their range
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Mo ... !1e1?hl=en
that's red ochre soil.
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