Vet asks to consider experimental drug. Hoping to find experiences or opinions.

[tedbubz]

Hi all,

My 1 year old beardie Ted has adenovirus. On the outside he is asymptomatic - he seems happy, alert, very active, eats daily, poops daily etc. His beard and belly is always white expect a few minutes a day he looks like this:

That's the worst it's ever gotten in his enclosure and when I hold him or place him back in basking spot he turns white shortly after.

It was only when I went to the vet a couple of days ago for a regular check up that I found out he has parasites coccidia and a high white blood cell count.

His first Blood Test (3 months ago):

His most recent one:

This is what they wrote to me:

I've done some research and I've read that there are these two drugs that could possibly reduce symptoms of adenovirus: cidofovir and Oseltamivir (tamiflu). But apparently not enough research has been done.

Ted always has parasites. He's gotten it 3 times, each time with him recovering from it by testing negative but then next time I go vet he gets it again. I am very thorough when J deep clean and he is potty trained so there's not a way he could get it through his poop right?

Also does the "stress marks" mean that inside his body something feels wrong relating to adeno? He never gets fully stressed and seems perfectly fine, husbandry is good.

I have another appointment to discuss the drug on Tuesday (and get medication for his parasites). Do you think there's anything specific I should ask a part from their success rate, the side effects?

Please, if you can, let me know what you think or have any experiences with adeno or even some well wishes for my little guy.

Thank you for reading so far ❤

 

[KarrieRee]

Hi all,

My 1 year old beardie Ted has adenovirus. On the outside he is asymptomatic - he seems happy, alert, very active, eats daily, poops daily etc. His beard and belly is always white expect a few minutes a day he looks like this:

View attachment 75727

That's the worst it's ever gotten in his enclosure and when I hold him or place him back in basking spot he turns white shortly after.

It was only when I went to the vet a couple of days ago for a regular check up that I found out he has parasites coccidia and a high white blood cell count.

His first Blood Test (3 months ago):

View attachment 75729

His most recent one:

View attachment 75730

This is what they wrote to me:

View attachment 75728

I've done some research and I've read that there are these two drugs that could possibly reduce symptoms of adenovirus: cidofovir and Oseltamivir (tamiflu). But apparently not enough research has been done.

Ted always has parasites. He's gotten it 3 times, each time with him recovering from it by testing negative but then next time I go vet he gets it again. I am very thorough when J deep clean and he is potty trained so there's not a way he could get it through his poop right?

Also does the "stress marks" mean that inside his body something feels wrong relating to adeno? He never gets fully stressed and seems perfectly fine, husbandry is good.

I have another appointment to discuss the drug on Tuesday (and get medication for his parasites). Do you think there's anything specific I should ask a part from their success rate, the side effects?

Please, if you can, let me know what you think or have any experiences with adeno or even some well wishes for my little guy.

Thank you for reading so far ❤

How long have you had him? His surface basking temps and UVB need to be on par for him w/ adeno --- they will have stress marks till he acclimates to his tank and surroundings that is normal but we want your husbandry to be on par -- its great you posted the test results Tracie is our vet tech mod on here working w/ a lab on the adeno virus she can best help you w/ this so I am going to flag this to her -- she is on late at night-- I would advise getting some F10 for the tank -- its a vet disinfectant and kills everything- you can find it on Amazon or Ebay --- and yes he can reinfect himself if the tank is not thoroughly cleaned -- I would use paper towels in the tank so you can throw them out - and spray the place w/ the F 10 every time he poops - I would take out all decor except necessary decor he needs for basking -
@Drache613

 

[tedbubz]

How long have you had him? His surface basking temps and UVB need to be on par for him w/ adeno --- they will have stress marks till he acclimates to his tank and surroundings that is normal but we want your husbandry to be on par -- its great you posted the test results Tracie is our vet tech mod on here working w/ a lab on the adeno virus she can best help you w/ this so I am going to flag this to her -- she is on late at night-- I would advise getting some F10 for the tank -- its a vet disinfectant and kills everything- you can find it on Amazon or Ebay --- and yes he can reinfect himself if the tank is not thoroughly cleaned -- I would use paper towels in the tank so you can throw them out - and spray the place w/ the F 10 every time he poops - I would take out all decor except necessary decor he needs for basking -
@Drache613

I've had him for six months now, he's full grown at 12 months.

Regarding husbandry like UVB and basking light, you, a few users and my vet has approved it.

I deep clean every month, already have F10. I use that to spray on the slate which is under the paper towel he poops on and thoroughly brush with F10.

I am familair with Tracie, I have talked tp her a few times and has been very helpful. I sent her an email but decided to post on here too looking for any other opinions. Thank you for tagging her anyways!

The thing is he absolutely loves to dig. I once put paper towels with dig box but he seemed more stress with this option and he kept trying to rip the paper towel and even eating it. It's like he was telling me to return his loose substrate.

I've also used other substrates like ceramic textured tiles, liner, but those things didn't work out. I don't know... he seems pretty hell bent on his sand.

 

[KarrieRee]

I've had him for six months now, he's full grown at 12 months.

Regarding husbandry like UVB and basking light, you, a few users and my vet has approved it.

I deep clean every month, already have F10. I use that to spray on the slate which is under the paper towel he poops on and thoroughly brush with F10.

I am familair with Tracie, I have talked tp her a few times and has been very helpful. I sent her an email but decided to post on here too looking for any other opinions. Thank you for tagging her anyways!

The thing is he absolutely loves to dig. I once put paper towels with dig box but he seemed more stress with this option and he kept trying to rip the paper towel and even eating it. It's like he was telling me to return his loose substrate.

I've also used other substrates like ceramic textured tiles, liner, but those things didn't work out. I don't know... he seems pretty hell bent on his sand.

That would be the culprit- sand harbors all kinds of bacteria --- I would get rid of it --- w/ him continuing to re infect -- until you can get rid of it completely I would keep him on a surface that you know you can thoroughly clean and have him rid of the stuff then return his loose substrate -- as far as stress marks that is usually a sign of either incorrect basking temps UVB or maybe hes seeing something out of his tank - like other animals birds etc --

 

[tedbubz]

That would be the culprit- sand harbors all kinds of bacteria --- I would get rid of it --- w/ him continuing to re infect -- until you can get rid of it completely I would keep him on a surface that you know you can thoroughly clean and have him rid of the stuff then return his loose substrate -- as far as stress marks that is usually a sign of either incorrect basking temps UVB or maybe hes seeing something out of his tank - like other animals birds etc --

Yes that's what I did when he got coccidia. Got rid of the sand and chose other non loose substrates. Got rid of most decor and had simple basic decor. He tested negative when I came back. Waited a few weeks before reintroducing new sand while always deep cleaning every second day with F10... and then he gets it again.

I have a slate rock in a corner with a paper towel on top and he is potty trained to poop there. After, I switch slate rocks and clean the other with F10 and brush.

I will consider trying the non loose substrate again after talking to my vet about it. But last time he advised against it because Ted gets visibly upset and lethargic when the whole tank isn't loose. And vet said there's much more likely of him getting sick this way, especially with adeno, so he said to just use sand and now he's very active.

So I guess I am at a standstill?

With the first picture... is it really full on stress marks? It only gets like that...it never gets to the point where he black beards or has those circular stress mark patterns. I just thought that instead of being stressed he's feeling uncomfortable with something inside him due to adeno?

And no he doesn't see anything outside expect my room and me. He knows my room very well since he explores it every day and is seemingly happy and active while exploring.

Ahhh I just don't know what to do

 

[xp29]

They can get those marks when cool/cold also, is it first thing in the morning that you see them? If so he may not be warmed up yet.
As for Coccidia, part of it's life cycle is to be pooped out then reingested. As far as I'm aware that has to happen in order for it to reproduce. It is a damned resistant parasite and extremely hard to kill. Most disinfectants simply won't kill it. Very high heat kills it, but it takes being exposed to the heat for a little bit of time, not just flashed hot. (by heat I'm talking steam, it has to be 200ish degrees i think). You can buy steam wands and such, but i don't know how effective it would be on sand. Ammonia works also, it needs to be mixed strong and needs to be in contact with the parasite for a few minutes to kill it. Obviously that will be near impossible with sand. Also Ammonia has it's own draw backs. It's toxic. It has to be completely removed and aired out till zero fumes evertime it's used. Beardies have a more simple respotory system than us and are more susceptible to the fumes. I have fought coccidia in one of my habitats for a while, its hard. I can find stuff online that says f10 and chlorhexidine can be used, but nothing definitive. The only thing i can find definitively that kills it is steam and ammonia.
I am not trying to take away from f10 or chlorhexidine at all, they are both vet and zoo grade disinfectants I'm just pointing out that coccidia is though to kill, and you may have to use extreme measures to do so.

 

[SkittlesK]

They can get those marks when cool/cold also, is it first thing in the morning that you see them? If so he may not be warmed up yet.
As for Coccidia, part of it's life cycle is to be pooped out then reingested. As far as I'm aware that has to happen in order for it to reproduce. It is a damned resistant parasite and extremely hard to kill. Most disinfectants simply won't kill it. Very high heat kills it, but it takes being exposed to the heat for a little bit of time, not just flashed hot. (by heat I'm talking steam, it has to be 200ish degrees i think). You can buy steam wands and such, but i don't know how effective it would be on sand. Ammonia works also, it needs to be mixed strong and needs to be in contact with the parasite for a few minutes to kill it. Obviously that will be near impossible with sand. Also Ammonia has it's own draw backs. It's toxic. It has to be completely removed and aired out till zero fumes evertime it's used. Beardies have a more simple respotory system than us and are more susceptible to the fumes. I have fought coccidia in one of my habitats for a while, its hard. I can find stuff online that says f10 and chlorhexidine can be used, but nothing definitive. The only thing i can find definitively that kills it is steam and ammonia.
I am not trying to take away from f10 or chlorhexidine at all, they are both vet and zoo grade disinfectants I'm just pointing out that coccidia is though to kill, and you may have to use extreme measures to do so.

When my beardie had coccidia, I cleaned twice a day with f10SC
All furniture was replaced with disposable furniture
(Cut up boxes)

& she cleared it less than a week with help from the forums.
& medications I bought from I think Tracie's? website. I can link it if you like.
I wouldn't use sand in a case like this...

 

[tedbubz]

They can get those marks when cool/cold also, is it first thing in the morning that you see them? If so he may not be warmed up yet.
As for Coccidia, part of it's life cycle is to be pooped out then reingested. As far as I'm aware that has to happen in order for it to reproduce. It is a damned resistant parasite and extremely hard to kill. Most disinfectants simply won't kill it. Very high heat kills it, but it takes being exposed to the heat for a little bit of time, not just flashed hot. (by heat I'm talking steam, it has to be 200ish degrees i think). You can buy steam wands and such, but i don't know how effective it would be on sand. Ammonia works also, it needs to be mixed strong and needs to be in contact with the parasite for a few minutes to kill it. Obviously that will be near impossible with sand. Also Ammonia has it's own draw backs. It's toxic. It has to be completely removed and aired out till zero fumes evertime it's used. Beardies have a more simple respotory system than us and are more susceptible to the fumes. I have fought coccidia in one of my habitats for a while, its hard. I can find stuff online that says f10 and chlorhexidine can be used, but nothing definitive. The only thing i can find definitively that kills it is steam and ammonia.
I am not trying to take away from f10 or chlorhexidine at all, they are both vet and zoo grade disinfectants I'm just pointing out that coccidia is though to kill, and you may have to use extreme measures to do so.

Actually I just realised upon reading your reply that he does it right before he poops.

Hmmmm yeah when I deep clean I take everything out being very thorough to take out all the sand (I use a vacuum cleaner), use ammonia and even bleach. I submerge all my decor with it, let it dry, spray F10 all over decor, let it dry and rinse. I do this 2-3 times just in case. I disinfect the actual enclosure and steam it too. Then when everything is finished I put new sand in and place everything back. This takes so so long to do lol. Is this not enough? Not sure what else I could do?

 

[xp29]

Wow!!! No that should be plenty, i couldn't imagine anything else you could do!

 

[tedbubz]

When my beardie had coccidia, I cleaned twice a day with f10SC
All furniture was replaced with disposable furniture
(Cut up boxes)

& she cleared it less than a week with help from the forums.
& medications I bought from I think Tracie's? website. I can link it if you like.
I wouldn't use sand in a case like this...

I've bought a few things from Tracie's website, but not the actual medication for parasites. I am planning on buying it at the vet tomorrow.

Do you mean wouldn't use sand at all? Or when he has coccidia?

Because I do remove the sand when he has coccidia and replace with paper towels. But he does get it back even before I switched back to sand.

My vet and I agreed that for Ted's case because he is very fussy that sand would be the best substrate to keep him on because he's more likely to get sick/have issues with other types of non loose substrate after trying them.

 

[tedbubz]

Wow!!! No that should be plenty, i couldn't imagine anything else you could do!

Oh ok! I always want to be extra thorough since he has adenovirus and want him to feel like he's in the best shape he can be.

I'll have to have a long discussion with my vet tomorrow about what other things I can do. Thank you for your replies, they were pretty helpful and I'm sure if someone later down the line has a similar issue your detailed response would help them too!

 

[xp29]

Your very welcome, I wish i could be more help. I hate that ted has adv, but when someone cares and trys as hard as you do it gives me faith in humanity again.

 

[SkittlesK]

I've bought a few things from Tracie's website, but not the actual medication for parasites. I am planning on buying it at the vet tomorrow.

Do you mean wouldn't use sand at all? Or when he has coccidia?

Because I do remove the sand when he has coccidia and replace with paper towels. But he does get it back even before I switched back to sand.

My vet and I agreed that for Ted's case because he is very fussy that sand would be the best substrate to keep him on because he's more likely to get sick/have issues with other types of non loose substrate after trying them.

You can switch out the sand for ceramic tile
It will keep your beardies nails filed if that's what your trying to do.
I wouldn't use sand.

Especially when sand harbors bacteria and you don't want your ADV + Dragon to continuously get Coccidia.

 

[tedbubz]

You can switch out the sand for ceramic tile
It will keep your beardies nails filed if that's what your trying to do.
I wouldn't use sand.

Especially when sand harbors bacteria and you don't want your ADV + Dragon to continuously get Coccidia.

I've tried that and also other non loose substrate options and even added a dig box but I think he didn't like it because he became lethargic and always had stress lines on him. When I switched it back,I kid you not, he was like a different beardie. Zooming around, climbing, jumping, digging etc.

I let my vet know this and he said that it just might be better in the long run to keep loose substrate since if he's always lethargic and stressed it will likely make him much more susceptible to illness. He just said it's best to try to keep him happy.

Does this mean he'll continuously get coccidia. I always am very thorough when I clean his tank and always replace sand with brand new one. I'll just have to chat with the vet again