Vegetables from the other side of the world.

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bdaddict

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Evening people. I've been wanting a bearded dragon for some time and have been reading up various care sheets and the like, in order to properly house the bearded dragon. However, the feeding sector has been bugging me for some time. Unfortunately, I am situated in a place where I cannot have access to things like collard greens and different squashes. I can however, gain access to stuff like Bok Choy, Kailan etc, as I know it. So the issue now is rather, can these vegetables be valid substitutes for the greens fed to bearded dragons in america and england? In addition, I would like to have their nutritional content listed if possible, for example, amount of goitrogens. A list for scientific names has been listed for your reference. Thanks for all your help!
Kailan = Brassica oleracea Alboglabra Group, AKA chinese broccoli or Chinese Kale.
Bok Choy = Brassica Rapa AKA chinese cabbage.
 

Paradon

Sub-Adult Member
Don't you guys have mustard greens over there? Are you in Asia? I hear that mustard greens are rather popular in Asia, especially India. I believe you can use China mustard which I think is available over there, the leaves are flat not curly like here. Mustard are really good staple green, and every once in a while throw in a few other veggies and greens into the salad with the mustard. I believe bok choy has a lot of goitrogen which can make you sick if eaten in a lot, but I'm not sure about the Chinese kale, though. I usually only give these and other bad veggies and greens (which are listed on the food chart on this site) maybe every other weeks and when I do, I always mix them in with the other good veggies and greens so the animals don't get a full dose of it. I know green beans, snow peas, sweet peas, and the string beans are also good staple to include as part of the regular salad...just mix them in with the mustard. I prepare them buy using the food processor, but you can steel-knived them into tiny little pieces, as small as you can. I know that winter squashes are really popular all around the world. Kabocha squash is quite common over in Asia I believe, but you can use any other squashes if you can't find it. I usually prepared these by cutting a piece out and peel it; then grate it on a cheese grater, or, you can just cook them and mashed them up. Winter squash and other orange and yellow colored veggies are really good for the skin and thus, help the reptiles when they shed. It has beta-carotene which is good for the skin.
 

bdaddict

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Original Poster
I am in Asia actually. Mustard Greens, I've only seen them once and I'm trying to find collards because of their lovely ca:p ratio, though I haven't been lucky in this aspect. Over here, fellow herpers feed their beardies stuff known as kangkung, bok choy and kailan, which I wasn't too certain about. I did my research and ran kangkung out because its oxalate level exceeded the calcium levels, making it useless. I'll go check out the site list and the supermarkets again before I get back to you guys. Thanks for your help!
 

Paradon

Sub-Adult Member
I don't think you will be able to find collard there. They are mostly sold in the U.S. because in the south they eat a lot of them. They switched over to collard because it grows better in the southern hot climate, which cause the kale to die. Mustard is an excellent staple...as good as collard in many aspects. People in India eat them because they are very nutritious, so they eat it because Indians eat a lot more veggies and greens than meat, so they need to eat nutritious veggies and greens. Vegetarians have to be careful of what they eat because they can suffer nutritional deficiency very easily being that veggies and greens are not as nutritious as meat and don't have complete protein, and not a lot of it.
 

bdaddict

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Original Poster
Pity. Mustard Greens as the base then. I can also find endives in the local supermarket. Well according to my research, bok choy is a form of turnip green. Queer if you ask. Since you suggest it, I shall not include bok choy into the diet at all. I'm still thinking about chinese kale AKA kailan though.
 

Paradon

Sub-Adult Member
You can use bok choy and other vegetables and greens.... What I'm trying to say is: use the mustard as the base and mix in other veggies and greens every once in a while (I usually do it every other weeks). The key is to give it varieties; that's the way we human eat. That's why we don't get sick eating stuff like spinach, kale, and other items because we eat a lot of different kind of food. We don't even eat the same thing for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You should try to strive for that when you feed your animals. Hope this help! :wink:
 

bdaddict

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Original Poster
Well variety isn't much of a issue for me. What I'm worried is that I produce a diet that doesn't follow the suggested ca:p intakes. You give them only mustard on a daily basis and in occasion mix in other greens?
 

Paradon

Sub-Adult Member
No, I mix in some parsnips, green beans, and butternut squash... Green beans and other beans in the pods (like snow peas, sugar snap peas, and string beans) and winter squash are great for using as a staple if you have them over there. I'm sure many have difficulty trying to create the diet with calcium to phosphorous ratio of 2:1; that's why you should supplement them with multivitamin and calcium supplements. You can rarely achieve the variety they eat in the wild; that's why you need to supplement. Nutritional deficiency is the leading cause of health issues in captive reptiles, especially metabolic bone disease. Nutritional deficiency is much more prevalence in herbivorous reptiles than omnivorous and carnivorous, or insectivorous, reptiles--especially metabolic bone disease. This just show the captive diet is lacking than what they eat in the wild. Male green iguanas in the wild often reach 6 feet from snout to the tail tip, with some maxing out at 7 feet. Captive iguanas don't grow as large and long as their wild counterparts. There is the same problem with Uromastyx: some won't grow as large as others. There is high mortality rate in grassland tortoises and green iguanas. They often suffer from not being properly fed and die years before their normal life expectancy. So, you need to mix in other veggies and greens as a result. The beans with their edible pods, that I mentioned earlier, and winter squashes are great to include as the staple. The legumes family are high in protein and winter squashes are good for the skin because they have beta-carotene, winter squash is also high in fiber. Remember you can achieve the right Ca:p ratio by adding a pinch of calcium and multivitamin supplements. You need to supplement! Hope this help! :wink:
 

bdaddict

Member
Original Poster
Noted you are online. Well thank you for your advice. I am able to find spaghetti squash, so I'll be including that into their daily diet along with endives and mustard greens. How often do you add feeders?
 

Paradon

Sub-Adult Member
Feeders... That depends on the dragons. Some won't eat the leafy greens and hard vegetables as much as others, so I tend to feed that one more. They're just people... The prevalence for food is different for each one. One of mine will not eat her veggies even if God himself commands her! lol :mrgreen:
 

Paradon

Sub-Adult Member
You know... You can order the seeds for vegetables and greens online. What you have to watch out for is: some don't grow very well in hot climate and some do, and some grow better in colder, temperate climate...
 

bdaddict

Member
Original Poster
Fair point. So as if oxalates, phosphorous aren't bothersome enough, what can I do about goigtrogens?
 

Paradon

Sub-Adult Member
that's exactly my point! :) You can use the veggies low in goitrogen and calcium oxalate as the staple, and add in the others that have a lot of goitrogen and oxalate every once in a while to add varieties for additional vitamins and minerals. I don't give it a full dose of these veggies that's why I mix about 1/3 of it into the salad mixture. 1/3 is just and estimate... I don't really measure. For example, the ancient Romans and Europeans feed kale as a supplemental to their livestock for centuries with no ill effect. They didn't just feed kale to the animals, only when they are in season. That's usually during the colder weather when the pasture grass was not available. When the pasture grass was available during the spring, or when ever, that's what the livestock feed on primarily. It becomes a serious problem when you feed kale exclusively. Spinach is the same way. If you just feed spinach, your animals will suffer from calcium deficiency, but when used as part of a balanced diet, it's actually beneficial. Spinach has a lot of iron and vitamin A I believe.
 

bdaddict

Member
Original Poster
More questions coming down the way. I've just read that goitrogens are deactivated when cooked. Definition of cook here? Should I cook the goitrogenic vegetables for this purpose and feed it to the bearded dragon?
 
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