Unknown illness

[spyroguy]

Hi there, First time posting! In October we took Spyro (9mo old female) to the vet because she was lethargic, had loss of appetite, and some watery stool. They said she didn't have parasites and they did bloodwork which showed "white blood cell population consistent with a fairly severe inflammatory response". We gave her oral antibiotics for two weeks along with attempting to syringe feed her food from the vet since she would not eat. She has been off the antibiotics for a week now and she is close to the same and still does not seem right. She has hardly been eating her salad, but she has started eating bugs usually once a day, but not as many as she use to. She is still lethargic or lazy at times, but not as bad as before. At some points throughout the day, her neck or the pouch beneath the beard will look distended and darker, but then it goes back (I will try to include those pictures) she also started gaping her mouth when we get her out when she is not basking. It usually turns into somewhat of a yawn but there is no noise with it. She may be starting to shed around the mouth though. Sometimes she does not open her eyes all the way (which will be in a photo) Some nights, she goes to sleep pretty early, way before her lights shut off. This morning, she stayed in her hide for an hour after her lights turned on which isn't normal and only came out because we picked her up to check on her. Her beard/neck area was distended and dark, but after a while it went back to normal.
We are pretty concerned and will probably take her to the vet again, but we are also wondering if it is just the antibiotics still in her system that is making her not feel great. Some days are better than others when it comes to activity and appetite. She has not pooped for a couple of days, but when she does poop now it is normal consistency.
Any help would be appreciated, thanks!

 

[xp29]

Hi there, First time posting! In October we took Spyro (9mo old female) to the vet because she was lethargic, had loss of appetite, and some watery stool. They said she didn't have parasites and they did bloodwork which showed "white blood cell population consistent with a fairly severe inflammatory response". We gave her oral antibiotics for two weeks along with attempting to syringe feed her food from the vet since she would not eat. She has been off the antibiotics for a week now and she is close to the same and still does not seem right. She has hardly been eating her salad, but she has started eating bugs usually once a day, but not as many as she use to. She is still lethargic or lazy at times, but not as bad as before. At some points throughout the day, her neck or the pouch beneath the beard will look distended and darker, but then it goes back (I will try to include those pictures) she also started gaping her mouth when we get her out when she is not basking. It usually turns into somewhat of a yawn but there is no noise with it. She may be starting to shed around the mouth though. Sometimes she does not open her eyes all the way (which will be in a photo) Some nights, she goes to sleep pretty early, way before her lights shut off. This morning, she stayed in her hide for an hour after her lights turned on which isn't normal and only came out because we picked her up to check on her. Her beard/neck area was distended and dark, but after a while it went back to normal.
We are pretty concerned and will probably take her to the vet again, but we are also wondering if it is just the antibiotics still in her system that is making her not feel great. Some days are better than others when it comes to activity and appetite. She has not pooped for a couple of days, but when she does poop now it is normal consistency.
Any help would be appreciated, thanks!

She is fairly chunky for 9 months old. (Or adult for that matter) she could be slowing down for the season. Not all beardies will do a full brumation especially the first year.
Also antibiotics can wreck their appetite. It usually took mine 2 to 3 weeks to start eating good again.
Maybe try giving her a non-dairy probiotic to help get her gut flora back to normal.

 

[spyroguy]

She is fairly chunky for 9 months old. (Or adult for that matter) she could be slowing down for the season. Not all beardies will do a full brumation especially the first year.
Also antibiotics can wreck their appetite. It usually took mine 2 to 3 weeks to start eating good again.
Maybe try giving her a non-dairy probiotic to help get her gut flora back to normal.

Thank you! We got some probiotic sprinkle to put on salads

 

[LarryTheLizard]

Thank you! We got some probiotic sprinkle to put on salads

Awesome!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That's a beautiful girl you have there! I agree, it is possible she could be slowing down for the season
as many of them do. If you have a copy of the blood test, please post it for me.
Did the say she definitely had an infection, or the severe inflammatory response, etc? Sometimes, when
they are going into brumation, their White blood cell counts can change, with some values being elevated
due to hormonal changes. This isn't always the case, but many times it is.
I hate to see Spyro medicated unnecessarily right before a brumation phase which can make her worse.
Keep using the probiotics, that should help her out if she is still on any type of medication.

Traciee

 

[spyroguy]

Hey there!

Thanks for all of the replies. Spyro still only eats bugs once a day and sometimes has a salad. She hasn't eaten any salad with the probiotic on it unfortunately. Some of you asked for the blood test results so I'll be attaching those. Thanks for the responses!

 

[AHBD]

How many insects are you feeding Spyro ? Very important question because at such a young age your pretty girl is overweight and with high azurophils it is possible that she already is developing fatty liver . Her lymphocytes are low but I'll let you ask your vet about that, try to get their reply ASAP. Tracie might tell you as well. Can you post a full body pic of her and pics of her encloure ? What are the temps. throughout and how are you measuring them ?
Everyone here will be pulling for Spyro and try to help

 

[Claudiusx]

How many insects are you feeding Spyro ? Very important question because at such a young age your pretty girl is overweight and with high azurophils it is possible that she already is developing fatty liver

I agree.

FWIW, liver stress such as with fatty liver disease impairs the livers ability to filter toxins, which would explain the elevated inflammation and infection markers. However, elevated inflammation and infection markers due to some type of stress, infection, or inflammation, would also conversely increase liver markers. So it's kind of a 50/50 guess based on bloodwork alone. But if you look at environmental factors, depending on further pictures that show her general appearance, it's more likely that the liver issue is the root cause, and the inflammation markers are a symptom. This is further supported by the elevated cholesterol.

Her diet needs to get evaluated and likely changed. Getting her some extra hydration by dripping some water on her snout for her to lick up would help too as her bloodwork indicates slight dehydration also.

Also, she is young, but she looks near full grown judging from the pictures. It's always been my experience that brumation is more so a factor of body maturity as opposed to age. Some dragons who reach full grown size prior to a year seem to be more likely to brumate despite their young age when compared to a dragon of the same age who is still growing.

-Brandon

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Thanks for posting the blood test results. I agree, the WBC readings indicate some inflammation
or infection. The Calcium levels look within range right now. I noticed that the Uric acid levels are
elevated, which can indicate dehydration or gout developing.
Definitely continue to encourage her to eat greens & vegetation while trying to cut back on the insects
some to help her kidneys.
You can try some Milk thistle to help the liver. In case she has started developing fatty liver problems,
it can help optimize the function.
Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

 

[spyroguy]

Hey guys! Thanks for all of the responses. Spyro is is loving the get well wishes.

I've attached three photos. One of the vets initial report, one of her just chilling (appears a shed is on the way ), and the other a photo of the enclosure. For lights we have an arcadia 12%, 2 100w heat bulbs, and another light for lights sake. Our substrate used to be reptisoil but we've removed that so we can better monitor her fecal movements. She can hide on either side.

She's on a diet (when she eats) of either dubias, crickets, or mealworms. We feed her as many as she feels like eating. For salads we use a rotation of kale, dandelion greens, cilantro, bok choy, parsley, collard greens, and mustard greens. She is fed twice a day. Once in the morning after she's had time to bask and a again for dinner (around 5 or 6)

Another note on the reptisoil. I feel like it might be a reason she became ill. It was rather dusty and I didn't realize I should be watering to help with that. So she was often covered in dirt and it could've caused a respiratory infection, idk but I'm going to prevent that in the future regardless and maybe move towards a tile floor setup.

I suppose my previous photos were not very flattering because she's actually a perfect weight according to the vet. He just said her stomach seemed a little distended but otherwise nothing wrong there. We are trying to keep up with her hydration (giving baths, salads, dropping water on her head, etc.).

Last night she crawled under a paper towel and slept at around 7pm. I had to pull her out this morning so she'd bask. After that she's been just hanging out but hasn't moved much. Still has not eaten her breakfast salad though.

We appreciate all of your help you guys. If you have any more ideas we can definitely give things a shot. We are currently trying that probiotic on the salads but otherwise just trying to get her back into her old schedule. Thanks!

 

[AHBD]

Thanks for the pics ! I must say that you guys are trying to take good care of her . Still, it's pretty common for a vet to think that an overweight dragon is not. There have been people on the forum who's dragons were well over 1,000 grams and very thick + overweight but their vets told them they were fine. Those dragons are all gone now, unexpectedly dying young to their grieving owners heartbreak.

Your girl isn't that bad but since she is not even an adult now is the time to nip it in the bud. I bring this up to highlight how vets can be way off, either to keep customers happy or just because they don't know. She definitely doesn't need to be force fed either, your vet seems to not really be experienced. Soaking 2-3 times a week is not recommended by experienced owners. She is big enough to brumate so it's fine to let her sleep.

My 12 year old boy is brumating right now [ will be 13 in the spring ] and has every year since he was 1 year old. Sleeps for 3-4 months and until this year has never woke up once during those brumations. They really know what they are doing when it comes to brumation. It's never good to keep them from brumating unless they are ill or very thin.

 

[xp29]

Hey guys! Thanks for all of the responses. Spyro is is loving the get well wishes.

I've attached three photos. One of the vets initial report, one of her just chilling (appears a shed is on the way ), and the other a photo of the enclosure. For lights we have an arcadia 12%, 2 100w heat bulbs, and another light for lights sake. Our substrate used to be reptisoil but we've removed that so we can better monitor her fecal movements. She can hide on either side.

She's on a diet (when she eats) of either dubias, crickets, or mealworms. We feed her as many as she feels like eating. For salads we use a rotation of kale, dandelion greens, cilantro, bok choy, parsley, collard greens, and mustard greens. She is fed twice a day. Once in the morning after she's had time to bask and a again for dinner (around 5 or 6)

Another note on the reptisoil. I feel like it might be a reason she became ill. It was rather dusty and I didn't realize I should be watering to help with that. So she was often covered in dirt and it could've caused a respiratory infection, idk but I'm going to prevent that in the future regardless and maybe move towards a tile floor setup.

I suppose my previous photos were not very flattering because she's actually a perfect weight according to the vet. He just said her stomach seemed a little distended but otherwise nothing wrong there. We are trying to keep up with her hydration (giving baths, salads, dropping water on her head, etc.).

Last night she crawled under a paper towel and slept at around 7pm. I had to pull her out this morning so she'd bask. After that she's been just hanging out but hasn't moved much. Still has not eaten her breakfast salad though.

We appreciate all of your help you guys. If you have any more ideas we can definitely give things a shot. We are currently trying that probiotic on the salads but otherwise just trying to get her back into her old schedule. Thanks!

She is really lovely

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I agree, she can definitely brumate at her age & size. It is good to get things under control while she is
still young so her liver can start to regenerate. It seems like so many vets don't have enough knowelge
of brumation behavior.
How is she doing today?

Tracie

 

[spyroguy]

Hello,

I agree, she can definitely brumate at her age & size. It is good to get things under control while she is
still young so her liver can start to regenerate. It seems like so many vets don't have enough knowelge
of brumation behavior.
How is she doing today?

Tracie

Yesterday she hid all day and didn't want to come out. I presume she'll do the same today but her neck pouch does look a tad swollen.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is she doing today, trying to sleep a bit more?
I did notice the uric acid levels were a bit elevated, did the vet mention anything about possible
gout? She may need to go on gout medication for awhile, to help get her uric acid levels down.
Decreasing her insects can help too, as well as some black or tart cherry juice extract for help with
the kidneys.
Keep us posted on her.

Tracie