The Red Vs. Orange debate.

[spyder79]

Well a post on another forum concerning favorite colors brought up something that I always find amusing in the bearded dragon world. The red Vs. orange debate. A dragon that most would call red being orange and vice versa. I have a few pics posted below and i would love to hear your input on what color each of these dragons are.

(Note these dragons all belong to me and are in my care no photos were stolen or borrowed from any other source)
1.

2.

3.

4.

I will not post my opinions as I do not wish to sway the answers with what color I think my dragons are. And feel free to post your own photos as well (though please answer also lol)

 

[keschete]

I would call 1,2 and 3 all Normal Phase/Red dragons and the last a Normal phase Orange/Citrus. But this also depends on lighting and wheather or not the dragon is cold or warm, because it changes color slightly.

Diablo, my Hypomelanistic is what I would consider to be orange and I would say that most Red dragons I have seen are normal phase, thus the darker/redder pigment, whereas hypos tend to fall more in the orange or citrus category because they have less pigment. I hope this makes sense. There are no hard and fast rules about this because color can be a very subjective thing.

I would say Diablo is definitely orange.

 

[spyder79]

Yeah that is another thing people do not realize. The reds, oranges, and yellows we have are naturally occuring colors in their own localities in Australia, essentially making them "normals".

As I see it (oh and the pictures are a direct representations of these dragons normal coloring no lighting tricks or photo adjustments have been done or used) Dragon 1 (a baby I just hatched recently) is orange, dragon 2 (future breeder female) is orange, dragon 3 (future female breeder) is a red, and dragon 4(current breeder) is more of a pastel orange.

Funniest thing is all 4 of these dragons are from very well established "red" lines. The reason I put red in quotes is because just because a animals gene pool tends to throw a red or orange color does not mean much. 2 of those dragons are Chris Allen reds, the baby is from a well established Blood red line, and koral (the 4th dragon) is a Cawley Red 100% het hypo.

Color has become far too subjective in this hobby. Just because something is from a certain bloodline does not mean it will be that color. Though breeders do "market" them as such. I also feel the industry standard for "red" has become very muddied due to breeders just labeling dragons as red (because a red dragon sales much faster than a orange).

 

[spyder79]

I would call 1,2 and 3 all Normal Phase/Red dragons and the last a Normal phase Orange/Citrus. But this also depends on lighting and wheather or not the dragon is cold or warm, because it changes color slightly.

Diablo, my Hypomelanistic is what I would consider to be orange and I would say that most Red dragons I have seen are normal phase, thus the darker/redder pigment, whereas hypos tend to fall more in the orange or citrus category because they have less pigment. I hope this makes sense. There are no hard and fast rules about this because color can be a very subjective thing.

I would say Diablo is definitely orange.

Question for you. Would you label this as a orange dragon?

He is a Hypo Orange Glow/tangerine line. But as I see it he is not a orange dragon as he only has that small amount of orange on his face. but that is only my opinion (i love him either way lmao)

 

[keschete]

As I see it (oh and the pictures are a direct representations of these dragons normal coloring no lighting tricks or photo adjustments have been done or used) Dragon 1 (a baby I just hatched recently) is orange, dragon 2 (future breeder female) is orange, dragon 3 (future female breeder) is a red, and dragon 4(current breeder) is more of a pastel orange.

I didn't want you to think I was saying your pictures were "enhanced" because I know you wouldn't do that. I just meant that, personally I can take 5 different pictures of Diablo and the orange may show up darker or lighter depending on his mood and the lighting. And Ash sometimes looks a horrid shade of gray and sometimes all white.

I guess I tend to think of a red dragon as a dark orange. So it is hard, when color is so subjective. I think of the oranges as more the lighter or pastel. At least I got 2 out of 4 right. I still thank that baby of yours is going to end up darker than what you expect. I think your little baby is going to be gorgeous and we need to see pictures of him as he gets bigger.

 

[spyder79]

As I see it (oh and the pictures are a direct representations of these dragons normal coloring no lighting tricks or photo adjustments have been done or used) Dragon 1 (a baby I just hatched recently) is orange, dragon 2 (future breeder female) is orange, dragon 3 (future female breeder) is a red, and dragon 4(current breeder) is more of a pastel orange.

I didn't want you to think I was saying your pictures were "enhanced" because I know you wouldn't do that. I just meant that, personally I can take 5 different pictures of Diablo and the orange may show up darker or lighter depending on his mood and the lighting. And Ash sometimes looks a horrid shade of gray and sometimes all white.

I guess I tend to think of a red dragon as a dark orange. So it is hard, when color is so subjective. I think of the oranges as more the lighter or pastel. At least I got 2 out of 4 right. I still thank that baby of yours is going to end up darker than what you expect. I think your little baby is going to be gorgeous and we need to see pictures of him as he gets bigger.

Don't worry I knew what you meant but I wanted to cover it as the outsider looking in may not understand it as such lol.

You didnt comment on orion :mrgreen: lmao.

oh and its not a right wrong sorta thing as you said color has become very subjective in the beardie world.

 

[keschete]

Question for you. Would you label this as a orange dragon?

He is a Hypo Orange Glow/tangerine line. But as I see it he is not a orange dragon as he only has that small amount of orange on his face. but that is only my opinion (i love him either way lmao)

Let me clarify, according to Bloodbank, Diablo is considered orange hypomelanistic.

Your hypo actually looks like a marketed leucitic that retained a lot of color on the face. Ash my ML has bright yellow around his eyes, but I wouldn't consider him citrus or yellow. I wouldn't consider your hypo an orange, but more a pastel or ML with a lot of color. Again, the whole thing is so subjective. I have seen lots of breeders call the light hypos, "snows", "marketed leucistics", "pastels"...what they are really, they are hypomelanistics and have varying degrees of color and pigment. The fancy names are just ways to charge more money for something that looks different from a regular colored normal phase dragons. Just like breeding different color cats or dogs and there isn't a society that judges reptiles for color and conformation like the AKC has for dogs.

Hehehe, maybe we should start a American Bearded Dragon Breeders Association and charge for registering beardies and bloodlines! Hehehehe

 

[spyder79]

Hehehe, maybe we should start a American Bearded Dragon Breeders Association and charge for registering beardies and bloodlines! Hehehehe

Lol there have been a few discussion about this in the past. Problem is 2 breeders can take the same line and name it 2 completely different things. And i can promise most breeders would not be willing to go from calling their breeder a Chris Allen Red to calling it a Red Phase lol. Not as "sexy" lmao.

 

[lizardgrrl]

Okay, my two cents. The baby, #1, while showing some red tones, could go either way. It is orange on the back, red on the sides, my guess, orange. 2 is more orange than red overall, (head and tail) but with the intensity of the red on the body, I'd incline to call it red. #3, out and out RED! :laughhard: I don't see that anyone can argue orange here. 4, Orange! Again, I don't see a way to argue for red.

The other two, Pastel Citrus types.

Hehehe, maybe we should start a American Bearded Dragon Breeders Association and charge for registering beardies and bloodlines! Hehehehe

Lol there have been a few discussion about this in the past. Problem is 2 breeders can take the same line and name it 2 completely different things. And i can promise most breeders would not be willing to go from calling their breeder a Chris Allen Red to calling it a Red Phase lol. Not as "sexy" lmao.

I wish there was some standard for the colors and the supposed bloodlines. It would be a big help in attempting to prevent inbreeding and improve the strength and vitality of all lines. :study: :study: :study: I started using a genealogy program on my dragons, but it is not designed for dragons, and has fits when you enter a baby (or thirty :wink: ) with a three year old mom! :laughhard: Imho, the only dragons that should be called Chris Allen Red would be a dragon with paperworkproving descent from Chris Allen's dragons. If you can't prove it, don't say it. I have one guy, a supposed Chris Allen x Cawley Red who is actually a light patternless gray, almost green, in some lighting. The people I got Thoth from had no idea where his paperwork was, as they were packing to move, so i will never know the truth of his background. :dontknow:

 

[fresnowitte]

Color has become far too subjective in this hobby. Just because something is from a certain bloodline does not mean it will be that color. Though breeders do "market" them as such. I also feel the industry standard for "red" has become very muddied due to breeders just labeling dragons as red (because a red dragon sales much faster than a orange).

I have those same thoughts.

Question what is the right thing to do?
Say you have proven red parents and several of the babies come out not red....how would you label those babies?
Bloodlines, color, with a disclaimer...etc? :roll: What would be proper?

 

[spyder79]

Color has become far too subjective in this hobby. Just because something is from a certain bloodline does not mean it will be that color. Though breeders do "market" them as such. I also feel the industry standard for "red" has become very muddied due to breeders just labeling dragons as red (because a red dragon sales much faster than a orange).

I have those same thoughts.

Question what is the right thing to do?
Say you have proven red parents and several of the babies come out not red....how would you label those babies?
Bloodlines, color, with a disclaimer...etc? :roll: What would be proper?

Well what I do and will continue to do is state the bloodlines of the parents and show photos of the parents. Then show a photo of the baby and state what color the baby is displaying at that time. I have a disclaimer I use stating that the color of a dragon can and does tend to change over time and there is no way to guarantee the color.

That is all you can do.

Okay, my two cents. The baby, #1, while showing some red tones, could go either way. It is orange on the back, red on the sides, my guess, orange. 2 is more orange than red overall, (head and tail) but with the intensity of the red on the body, I'd incline to call it red. #3, out and out RED! :laughhard: I don't see that anyone can argue orange here. 4, Orange! Again, I don't see a way to argue for red.

The other two, Pastel Citrus types.

I agree on the colors for the most part. Though to me Female number 2 (gina) is flat out Orange. But I think that is because I know what a true red dragon looks like. And in regards to the baby I say orange only because I know what the line does as it ages but you are right based on current color it could do any number of things.

But you would be surprised at how many people would flat out say that those first 4 are all red.

 

[fresnowitte]

Well what I do and will continue to do is state the bloodlines of the parents and show photos of the parents. Then show a photo of the baby and state what color the baby is displaying at that time. I have a disclaimer I use stating that the color of a dragon can and does tend to change over time and there is no way to guarantee the color.

That is all you can do.

Okay just checkin' that's what I am doing, good to know I'm on the right page.

I notice alot of forsale threads by big breeders and they rarely post pic's of parents, prior siblings, or age of said babies.
Which always leads to believe that it's not confirm-able or something is being left out/fishy.

 

[spyder79]

Well what I do and will continue to do is state the bloodlines of the parents and show photos of the parents. Then show a photo of the baby and state what color the baby is displaying at that time. I have a disclaimer I use stating that the color of a dragon can and does tend to change over time and there is no way to guarantee the color.

That is all you can do.

Okay just checkin' that's what I am doing, good to know I'm on the right page.

I notice alot of forsale threads by big breeders and they rarely post pic's of parents, prior siblings, or age of said babies.
Which always leads to believe that it's not confirm-able or something is being left out/fishy.

Barb there really is no right or wrong way. Its all about what makes it so you can sleep at night. Many many breeders will sell a dragon for the line it comes from, nonchelantly promising a color that they have no idea will ever occur in that dragon. I could not bring myself to do that. My conscience will not allow me to promise something that I can not deliver on. But others would care less. So in essence it comes down to what you deem as right and wrong. Like I think selling a dragon as a Purple translucent for 800+ dollars when you know full well that 98% of the time it will end up being a dull grey adult is wrong but many disagree with me on that.

 

[lizardgrrl]

Well what I do and will continue to do is state the bloodlines of the parents and show photos of the parents. Then show a photo of the baby and state what color the baby is displaying at that time. I have a disclaimer I use stating that the color of a dragon can and does tend to change over time and there is no way to guarantee the color.

That is all you can do.

Okay just checkin' that's what I am doing, good to know I'm on the right page.

I notice alot of forsale threads by big breeders and they rarely post pic's of parents, prior siblings, or age of said babies.
Which always leads to believe that it's not confirm-able or something is being left out/fishy.

Hi Barbara, I think we're all on the same page here! In my experience, the best breeders give you all the information they have. For example,when I bought my Sundial babies, Galileo and Gaia, Loren had posted pictures of the parents, with information on their parents, grandparents and great grans all on his website. He didn't have anything on Toadstools parents, their father, but he was an very large 8 year old normal dragon he got from a friend, unrelated to any of his lines. That's what he knew, and he said so. Foible, their mother, was the daughter of Bandit and Nugget. Bandit was a blood Morph from Kevin Dunne and Nugget was the daughter of Chai and Snickers. I have pictures of all the dragons named, because Loren made sure that the info was available. If someone says they have a dragon with Sundial lines, they should have that kind of info as well, because it was always clearly posted on the site. He never made claims about the color. I don't know if he is still breeding, though, as my link for his page just comes up blank. :study: :study: :study:

 

[keschete]

This is really a good discussion! Hopefully it helps someone looking at red and orange dragons!