Soon To Be Beardie Owner with Concerns

[delfiend]

Hi, I'm delfiend. I have yet to get a bearded dragon, but for the past month I have been doing extensive research on the notion that I would one day get one. As it just so happens, this morning I got the OK from my mother that I could get a little beardie later in the summer, after we've gone on any of our extensive trips away from home.

So no, I do not have a bearded dragon yet, but I am very excited to get one.

My Problem:
However, I have run across a dilemma. Of the dozens of websites and caresheets I've read, EVERYONE says "DO NOT PUT BABY BEARDIES IN SAND!!" Well, at my local Petco, which is a GREAT Petco by the way (the manager Phil and I are buds and he's super knowledgeable and caring for all the animals) keeps their juvenile bearded dragons in sand. Also, they don't seem to feed them as much as everyone says to (2-3 times day, as much as they can eat in 10-15 minutes). All I see in their habitat is sand, a log they all perch on, and a shallow dish of mealworms (another no-no as I have learned).

Look, out of all my local pet stores, this Petco is the best of them all. The others simply lack the care and knowledge to properly care for their pets for an extended period of time. But they aren't caring for their baby dragons correctly. It would be a different story if they were newly arrived babies that I could take home and keep from the wrong-doings of the Petco Bearded Dragon set up, but they aren't. They've been there a while. Two of them are developing really nice dark colors too.

So naturally I want to buy from a breeder to get the best dragons that are properly cared for, but I'm not looking for anything special. Just a beardy to love and call my own. Personally, I've made it a goal of mine to one day start breeding bearded dragons of my own and specialize in dark colors like black and purple, as well as pastel and snow dragons.

About Me:
There's where my problem lies. Look guys, I'm just a teen with a love for animals and an unhealthy obsession with researching and studying all sorts of critters. Let me tell you a bit about myself so you can get an idea of who I am. I have several pets. I have the family dog, a white lab from a great breeder. I also have our Abyssinian guinea pig Skittles who is very special and brave and hilarious. I made sure Skittles got his needed 8 sq. feet of cage space and give him a salad every day. I also have a 46 gallon fish tank that's dominated by my ever-growing Tiger Oscar (his name is Greg but I mostly just call him oscar). Recently (about a year ago) I got hermit crabs after learning how poorly cared for they are and all the stereotypes of how to care for them that tend to be the death of the poor things. I have all four of them on two types of hermit crab food I bought from a specialist website as well as on a calcium and mineral supplement. I got a humidifier for Christmas and since then their humidity has never dropped below the needed 70% mark. I got a baby scorpion that my older brother caught in Georgia that I brought home and kept, named Klaus. He's getting bigger.
So that's me. I'm a pet fanatic, and also an animal lover. Nothing bothers me more than a person who doesn't know how to care for a pet but buys one anyway. That's why I want to make sure my bearded dragon is healthy, and that all my efforts to keep him that way aren't in vain.

On the Topic of Beardies Again:
Right now, I'm struggling with money. I'm glad to know I have until July to get the money I need for my beardy and his supplies. I found BeardedDragon.co which had the same supplies as Petco at more than half the cost!! I also watched Carolina Classic Dragons' YouTube series and found some cheap ways to provide substrate and shelter for my beardy (papertowls and stone patio blocks for a homemade cave). I put everything into online shopping carts and checked out and totaled everything up with tax. Here's what my list looks like. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I'M FORGETTING SOMETHING!!! (P.S. I have the aquarium and hood light and heat lamp fixture already)

Substrate: Repti Carpet from BeardedDragon.co: $6
Light: 24" Repti Sun 10 UVB from BeardedDragon.co (w/shipping insurance): $26
Heat: 75 watt Zoo Med Basking Spot Lamp 2 Bulb Value Pack at BeardedDragon.co (w/shipping insurance): $10.50
Housing: 3 of the 6-in x 9-in Ashland Countryside Patio Stone at Lowes: $3.16
Basking: 14" Repti Hammock at BeardedDragon.co: $6
Supplements: Rep-Cal Herptivite Multivitamin at BeardedDragon.co + Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3 at Amazon.com: $11.19
Food: Rep-Cal Juvinille Bearded Dragon Food at BeardedDragon.co: $4.50
Gutload: Rep-Cal Adult Cricket Food at BeardedDragon.co: $7.50

Total: $79.02

Add to that the $60 for a pet store bearded dragon, and I come up to needing $139.02.

So I would buy a breeder's bearded dragon in a heartbeat for $60, but the problem is the $50 shipping. I'd much rather find a bearded dragon near me without the hassle and danger and cost of shipping one from somewhere else. I'm planning on getting the money I need mostly through getting payed for my grades from this last quarter (all A's is $100 in my pocket), babysitting for cheap for my parents (they usual don't pay me but if I ask I can get a few bucks), dog-sitting for my neighbors, and doing work around the house for a few dollars here and there. Plus it never hurts to count quarters and check the couch for spare change.
I've gotten pets before with very little money to start with. My hermit crabs for example. I had some money burning a whole in my pocket at the end of last summer and I did the research and decided to get hermit crabs. Well, I had the money for the basic supplies and the crabs (and already had a tank), but by the end of the first wave of my endeavor I was scrounging together spare change to buy the best of the best hermit crab food and spare shells for my babies. But I got them, none the less, and my crabs are as happy and healthy as they can be!

In conclusion, wish me luck and bestow upon me priceless advice as I start my drive head first into the world of bearded dragons with an empty pocket, a mind full of knowledge, and the ever lurking anticipation of the first day my new baby will crawl around in his new home and start an inseparable bond with me, his friend and owner!

 

[Missi]

Check to see if there are any reptile shows in your area .
We got our beardie Jim at a repticon show . They showed us a few in the lower price range of $75 . When speaking with the breeders for a while I told them my son ( 9 yrs old) has been saving for a while to be able to get a beardie and all we wanted was a
healthy one - color did not matter to us . They sold us Jim for $60.

Jim was 10 weeks old when we got him and was about 9 inches long - our petco has 4-5 inch beardies for same price .

 

[MoonsAreBlue]

Hi there delfiend. I'm thrilled to hear that you're so concerned about getting a beardie. That's so much better than just purchasing one on a whim.

There was a lot to read through, and I may have missed it, but do you currently have a tank for your beardie? You need at least a 40 gallon breeder tank, which is 36x18 on the floor. Again, sorry if I missed it. There was a lot of information!

Here is my thought about sand. The bad thing about it is that if accidentally ingested, beardies may become impacted. This chance is higher with younger dragons since there intestinal tract is not fully developed. Ask your Petco retailer if they feed any crickets. Generally, beardies accidentally ingest the sand while eating food that is directly on the sand. If they are being fed mealworms from a dish, I guess they would be ingesting (on average) less sand than beardies who are eating crickets that are jumping all in the sand. However, if they are being fed large mealworms, this may cause impaction from the size and the amount of hard chitin, which dragons can't digest. Even if they are being fed small mealworms, they have higher amounts of chitin and will also cause risk of impaction. You seem to trust your store, but I'm just trying to tell you how I feel about these conditions. I would instead suggest going to a reptile show, as Missi said.

There's a site http://petmountain.com/ who also sells cheaper products than in major retail stores. You might want to look there to see if you can save even more money. Also, first time buyers get free shipping over $49 right now. I think you have to sign up for email alerts, but I think it's totally worth it.

If you're worried about money, there are some things you can change. First, I'm not really sure what you plan on doing with the patio stone, so maybe you could elaborate on that. Second, you can use paper towels or newspaper instead of the carpet. Third, I wouldn't get the bearded dragon juvie food. If your beardie likes it, then that's great, but I don't think most beardies like that kind of food. If you plan on getting an older beardie, chances are even slimmer than they will eat that food. If you really want it though, chances are better that your beardie will eat it if he/she is young and starts eating it then. Fourth, you also don't need the gutload. You can gutload the crickets with anything your beardie would eat (leafy greens, fruits, veggies) and potato or carrot slice for a water source. Fifth, you can use regular household bulbs to heat your terrarium as long as they are white. Incandescent bulbs and halogen bulbs are recommended around here, it seems. Sixth, make sure you have the appropriate fixtures for the bulbs you are getting. Lastly, you need a thermometer. There's a ~$12 Acurite indoor/outdoor thermometer with a probe that you can get at Walmart.

Let me know if you have more questions!

 

[jacody]

I read your post and I wouldn't feed any canned or boxed dragon pellets/food... stick w/ fresh greens and a couple veggie staples.. on the petco debate... I've done the breeder thing and had a bad experience w/ a sick dragon form the start and ultimately losing that dragon to kidney failure... I now have Crixus from Petsmart.. he's been to the vet, has a clean bill of health and is thriving and a happy lil guy.. you shouldn't forgo them at Petco if that's what you want and don't want to pay a breeder full price.. just something to think about..

 

[delfiend]

Thanks for all the help, guys!

Responces to Responces
@Missi
I just did a Google search and sure enough, I have a Reptile Show/Convention/Thing going on through the summer about 20 minutes away from my house! I don't know how many breeders/sellers attend or how reputable they will be, but it's worth a shot going to!

@MoonsAreBlue
Yes, I do have a tank. It was a fish tank but we're getting rid of the fish and I'm taking over on what will become of it now (Bearded Dragon). The mealworms in the dish are pretty small, but the bearded dragons themselves are pretty lethargic. They may not be getting enough heat but all they do is sit on top of their log and watch people go by with a lack of interest. I tried to engage their curiosity by wiggling my finger in front of the glass and all sorts of stuff but they didn't investigate or even move.
I checked out petmountain.com, and I've gone to at least 6 other online stores, and the best prices I've found are at petstore.com. It's mostly because they offer free shipping (plus a $0.35 insurance fee) for orders over $75.
At all the online stores, I put in the cart the same items:
Reptisun 10 UVB 24”
Zoo Med Basking Spot Lamp 75 watt 2 bulb value pack
Repti-carpet
Repti-hammock small 14”
Rep-Cal Calcium w/ Vitamin D3
Rep-Cal Herptivite Multivitamin
Rep-Cal Juvenile Bearded Dragon Food
Zoo Med Digital Thermometer w/ Probe
Fluker’s High-Calcium Cricket Food
Fluker’s Cricket Quencher

Three of the stores didn't have all the items on my list. The others cost (with shipping) HerpSupplies.com: $96.66; LLLReptile.com: $95.18; PetStore.com: $84.92

The patio stones are to stack into a little cave/hut for the beardie. I'm also told they help in keeping beardie's claws a little worn down. I'm planning on using paper towels as bedding until the beardie is older, then I'm going to use the Repticarpet. I was thinking I could use the pellet food as just some extra nutrients for if I run low on nutritious vegetables for a day or two or something. There were a couple of sites, Carolina Classic Dragons being one of them, that said to give them pelleted food along with veggies and insects. I was going to get the gutload because we use so many veggies and fruits for my guinea pig already that using them for the crickets seemed kinda wasteful when we could feed them cheap gutload. The gutload and water cubes are basically a convince I'm willing to spend the money on so that I don't have to give the crickets fresh food everyday or really worry about making sure they're hydrated. For the heat lamp, yes, I have the proper fixture. But what I'm wondering is what wattage I'll need. I'm starting off with a 30 gallon tank (18" deep), and I don't want to buy too high of a wattage and then have my basking spot be too hot and then have to buy a lower wattage and so on and so forth. Does anyone have any idea what wattage would be best?

@jacody
Thanks for the advice. I'm pretty sure my Petco/Petco in general has a fairly long warranty on animals. Plus, I'm sure I can talk to Phil the manager and see what his personal policy is on animals that become ill in the warranty time. I have a lot of options of where to get my dragon now, but I'm sure once it becomes closer to the time I'll actually be getting my dragon that I'll have a better idea of what to do.


Questions
My most recent research has left me with a few questions. I've been picking apart every bearded dragon care sheet I can find from breeders and reputable reptile sites and collecting relevant and important information in one document.

1.) There seems to be a lot of dispute on what the appropriate night temp should be. "nighttime drops into the low 70's"; "At night, it can go down to about 65 degrees"; "nighttime temps may fall to about 65-70 degrees"; even 60 degrees was said to be safe. What do you think is the safest night temp/ the lowest the temperature that is safe?

2.) There is also a lot of controversy over when and whether or not to use night time heating. Sunshine Dragons says: “When below 65 degrees at night, use special night heat lights”, and BNK Reptiles says: “As long as your home stays above 60F at night, no extra heating needed”. What is your opinion on night time heating and when to use it?

3.) Another controversy I came across was using water bowls in the cage. I've found every opinion from NEVER put a water bowl in the tank to ALWAYS have one in the cage, and every opinion in between! It makes sense to have one in the cage, as long as a dragon knows how to use it and it's kept clean. Everyone who says no usually complains about it upping the humidity. Trust me, a little water dish in a big cage with a screen lid does very little to the humidity, or at least in my house. I have hermit crabs with a screen lid and two deep water dishes and those alone did squat for the humidity. What are your opinions on a water dish in the cage?

4.) Last controversy. There's a lot of varying opinion on how often to use calcium supplements and multivitamin supplements. Sunshine Dragons say: Dust insects with a calcium with D3 (Rep-Cal) vitamin daily or whenever live insects is offered”. HerpSupplies.com says: “Every other day, dust crickets with Rep-Cal or other phosphorous free calcium powder”. BNK reptiles says: “Hatchlings and young dragons need supplemented with calcium 4-5 days a week (Rep-Cal calcium STRONGLY recommended). Juvies & Subadults generally get 2-3 days per week calcium”. There's the same infrequency of opinion with the multivitamin. Sunshine Dragons say: "2 times a week you should dust with a multivitamin instead of the calcium". BNK Reptiles says: "Hatchlings and young dragons need supplemented with vitamins 2x a week. Juvies & Subadults generally get 1x vitamins per week maybe." Rep-Cal themselves say to mix the calcium and multivitamin in a 1:1 ratio and dust everything you feed them in the mixture. How often do you use calcium supplement/multivitamin supplement and on what foods?


Thanks again for the help, guys!

 

[jacody]

water.. i've never had a dish in there, both of my beardies never drank even in the bath.. i just bathe often and they get more hydration from their veggies than i originally assumed...

night heat.. i live in new england and the winters are long, but it's never gotten down below 65 and so Crixus sleeps w/ lights out..

i use a multivitamin twice weekly and dust w/ calcium one out of the two feedings a day, my vet told me to use the d3 sparingly because my uvb is spot on and the d3 can build up in the body.. also in the summer months i take my beardies outside and 10 minutes out in the direct sunlight is equivalent to 24 hrs. under an artificial uvb lamp..

hope that helps..

 

[MoonsAreBlue]

Nighttime temperature: Personally, I only use additional heat if my temps fall below 65. Usually they are around 68-71, so I don't worry about it.

Water dish: I had one when my beardie was a baby. She went near it a total of one time so I just took it out. If your beardie uses it a lot, then keep it if you can afford the extra humidity. It may only increase a minimal amount, but this is about your beardie's health. My humidity generally runs at the high end, so I don't use a water dish.

Supplements: Personally, I give my beardie calcium with D3 five times per week during one feeding. I use the herpivite the other two days of the week during one feeding. She is currently 4.5 months old, and I will most likely continue this routine until she is 6 months old. At that time, I'm going to cut down to calcium 3 times per week and multivitamin once. My beardie gets collard greens with every salad (other greens and veggies are rotated) because they have a very high amount of calcium. I would not take Rep-Cal's suggestion to heart. They make good products but they're also trying to sell that product. I think they're recommending more of the herpivite than needed.

Oh, and on what foods: I place a fresh salad in Parthy's food dish every morning. Then I use the supplements on 3 superworms in the morning. I place the superworms on top of the salad. This way, there will be some additional supplements on her salad.

There are a few different methods for supplements, but I would suggest going to different breeders' sites and see what they use and when. I think this would be more reputable than a supplier's suggestion, because breeders will have proof of generations of healthy beardies.

If you still have more questions, please ask!

 

[delfiend]

Thanks for the info. I know in the end it'll be up to me how I take care of my beardie, but it helps to know what others do too, since I have no experience myself.

I just wanted to update this forum because I'm excited. After this weekend is over (graduation weekend), there will be nothing important to take up anyone's time. I'll be able to go to look around the local pet stores for the best kept beardies, and I'll be able to take my bro's fish to Petco to surrender them and get his tank cleaned up and ready for my beardie. I've also already got a dog-sitting gig at my neighbors which will get me around 20-30 bucks, plus my mom will be able to go to the bank and get the money she owes me.

I read reviews on this site on most all the products I'm planning on buying. The only one that was poor was the Zoo Med Basking Spot Lamp
(reviews here: http://www.beardeddragon.org/reviews/product.php?id=41)

There were comments such as inconsistent heat emission and short life span. Anyone use these heat lamps and have any comments? Or does anyone have any other heat lamp products they'd recommend?

Also, LLLReptile is selling beardies on their website. I saw that I could get a baby with a nipped tail for only $5 more (including shipping) than Petco. I probably wont as I don't want a beardie under 6" as my first, but I was just wondering if anyone knew how reputable they were.

Thanks again! I'll keep you posted!

 

[MoonsAreBlue]

I don't know about LLLReptile since I haven't ordered anything from them.

If I were you and buying a new basking bulb, find a normal household bulb that is unused, plug it into the fixture for your beardie and measure the temperature at the distance he or she might bask. If the temperature is right, just use that. If not, go to Walmart or Home Depot or any store like that and buy a higher wattage regular bulb that isn't frosted or colored. It will be a lot cheaper in the long run. You could buy 4 or more of them (depending on the wattage) for the same price as a $10 basking bulb!

I think I've already mentioned this before, but it really is cheaper! I'm just trying to emphasize that. I wish I hadn't spent the extra money on a fancy basking bulb when I first got Parthy. I don't see a difference in her activity since I switched to a normal bulb.

 

[delfiend]

Thanks again MoonsAreBlue! You've been a huge help!!

I started a blog in order to keep track of my bearded dragons growth and such once I get him. However, I made my first post which I've been working on for a week or so. Its a care guide compiled of several care sheets from reputable websites and breeders. You can check out it out and tell me what you think if you'd like.

http://beardiedragblog.blogspot.com

 

[MoonsAreBlue]

I'm glad I could help!

I just read through your blog. I'm no expert, but here's a couple things you could add/change that I have learned from other reputable people and sites.

1) I haven't heard anything about a screen top regulating humidity. If it really does, then I've learned something new! I don't even use my screen cover. My lamps are all elevated and the screen is kind of a pain to use.
2) You mentioned the UV rays go through the screen and such. It is not recommended to place a UVB above a screen top because up to 50% of the UVB can be filtered out. This is okay to do with an Arcadia light though, since only 20-30% of the UVB is filtered out.
3) Some other good substrates are slate and ceramic tile. Some people say slate gets a little warm when used in a basking spot. Some people say this warmth is not noticeable. If one is concerned about the warmth of the slate, ceramic tile does not absorb as much heat. I personally use slate on 2/3 of my terrarium, carpet in the hide under the basking spot, and ceramic tile on the basking spot. I also have a log, branch, rock, and hammock. I think she likes the different textures, and I like the way it looks.
4) The reason mealworms should be avoided is that chitin is hard to digest and may cause impaction. Some people may want to know why to avoid them!
5) You don't always have to dust food. I usually only dust one meal per day. As a baby, if your beardie doesn't eat a lot of insects at once (10 crickets or less, I guess), you may want to dust 2 meals in the day. I would get other opinions on this since this is just my personal thought. My baby beardie always ate lots so I didn't have this issue, just one dusting per day.
6) I've read in multiple places that juveniles should be fed twice a day, and that is how often I currently feed my 4.5 month old.
7) Include that heated rocks and heating pads are potentially dangerous. As you mentioned already, they can't feel heat from underneath and using these heating sources can burn them.

Everything else looks great! Let me know if you want to know anything else.

 

[delfiend]

Thanks for the info, MoonsAreBlue! I've added your suggestions into the post.

I've currently run into a little problem. So Petco is having this "Reptile Rally" thing June 15 and 16. Allow me to add the ad.
http://www.petco.com/petco_page_PC_reptilerally.aspx

So it's 50% off all reptiles AND a bearded dragon starter kit. I know better than to get the kit. I've looked over what it comes with. First, I don't need the 20 gallon tank. Second, Petco included an under-tank heater on their bearded dragon shopping list, so the items in the starter kit are probably pretty cheap.
But the whole thing is rather funny. I find out I can get a bearded dragon, start doing a bunch of research, and then THIS pops up out of the blue. It seems almost too good to be true.

However I do have one problem.

If I got my bearded dragon then (June 15-16), there would be at least two week longer or more vacations that would take place once I got him. The bearded dragons are pretty young (6-8") and I want to put them on a good feeding schedule as Petco doesn't seem to feed them as much as they need (never seen them feed them and there's only a dish of mealworms in the cage). My friend that takes care of my guinea pig would probably be able to take care of him, and if not my best friend Ali is almost always available and she did a great job with my demanding care schedule for my mice and my seedlings last year. However, even feeding a bearded dragon 50 some crickets a day, 2-3 times a day for 10-15 minutes each time, on top of changing the water dish/spraying the bearded dragon (having a water dish will be decided by the beardie himself) and such seems a little much.

What do you do when you go on vacation and leave your beardie? I mean, I'll have Rep-Cal Juvenile pellets which offer a balanced diet available if needed.

 

[MoonsAreBlue]

I would not leave my beardie longer than one day. I had to travel for a weekend when she was 2 months old, and I took her with me. Personally, I would not get the beardie until after vacation. They require a lot of work and attention when they are babies, and they grow a lot in 2 weeks when they're young. I wouldn't want to miss that. Would you even be able to stock up on enough feeders to give your friend to feed your beardie? I've even heard of some beardies becoming uninterested in their owners after having gone on vacation for a while. There's a lot of things to consider.

 

[delfiend]

Thanks again. I thought it was a long stretch, and I wasn't sure myself whether it was worth it. I'm pretty sure they're also having a up to 25% off all Zoo Med items, which may or may not be a good deal since their prices are already so high. It said in the add though that we'd be able to handle the reptiles and so on and so forth. It might be my chance to inquire about how my Petco cares for the Beardies and see for myself how healthy and active they are.

 

[MoonsAreBlue]

It's definitely worth checking out the sales and conditions. You will always want to check over the beardie you plan to purchase, even if you get to handle others. I hope all goes well for you.