Small Ball Python

[ReptiMama2]

I have a 5 year old Ball Python and he is small for his age. Here are a couple of recent pictures, taken with my phone so quality is :? I'll try to get some better ones later.

I know he is 5 because I got him in 2005 after my husband came home from Iraq. I got him from a pet store in the mall... I know...not the best place but I was more stupid back then and pretty novice too! He eats adult mice once a week, anywhere between 1-3. He's never really been a picky eater and only refused to eat once when we first got him. He's active, alert, normal behavior. He has not had any health problems since I've had him. He recently had a good shed, about 3 weeks ago or so. I can't remember what size his viv is right now, though it is pretty good size, but I'll try to get pics soon to show the whole set up. I updated him almost immediately after I got him because the lady in the pet store, when I asked if the 10 gal. she was trying to sell me would last his lifetime, told me "sure that will be plenty big" and then I found out uh NO so I got a bigger one if I had to guess I would say 30-40 gal... He has a large water bowl, large log for a hide, under tank heater and heat rock, I know those can be bad but I've never had a problem with it and he loves it. Here is the bedding I use: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752663 We have moved around a great deal since we first got him so there may be some stress from all of that.

Can anyone give any suggestions as to why he is still so small? I don't really mind but I don't want it to affect his health. I think he is only the size of about a 1 year old... Would feeding him more or enlarging his viv help any?

 

[Floof]

Two guesses: You've been feeding him MICE (he should be large enough for moderately-sized adult rats), you don't regulate temperature, and you took pet store advice. A small part of it may also be that he's likely male, but he would still be a couple pounds (900+ grams) and large enough to chow down on a good-sized rat. I had a male BP at 1200 grams (4-5 years old) who could eat a medium rat if he wanted to, though he much preferred two frozen/thaw rat pups to anything else.

First things first, forget everything you thought you knew about ball pythons and start really researching. You came to a great place like this for your bearded dragon's sake.. Why didn't you do the same for your ball python? A good place to start for this is http://ball-pythons.net. It's sort of the "BD.org" of ball pythons.

A 30-40 gallon tank is fine, so at least you have that right. However, when it comes to heating... DITCH THE HEAT ROCK! They are horrible! If he isn't burned already, he must just avoid it anyway or it has failed cold, because those things get HOT. As in, burn and possibly kill your snake hot. As for the heating pad, they can be good for snakes... If properly regulated. At the very least, get a lamp dimmer (basically a cheap rheostat) and a digital thermometer with probe. Put the probe of the thermometer on the glass under ALL the substrate, directly on top of the heat pad. Let it adjust to read the temperature for about an hour before you do anything else, so you can see what temperature you've been keeping your BP at for the last 5 years... My guess is way too hot, since I've witnessed those same heat pads exceed 140*F... Which is fine if it's a Savannah Monitor, but way fatal for your BP, whose heat pad shouldn't exceed 100*F tops. Plug the heat pad into the lamp dimmer and adjust until the heat pad is reading consistently 90-95*F. Remember that you have to let it adjust for half an hour or so between each adjustment to get the most accurate fix. This is where seeing what temperature it was before comes in handy, as it will give you an idea of how to start with the rheostat adjustments.

The rheostat is the cheapest fix to this problem. However, the far superior path is a thermostat. These adjust the temperatures for you. Basically, you set it and forget it, where rheostats you have to adjust from day to day, since may factors including the room temperature effects how hot the heat pad is. Herpstats are among the best you can get, but, if you need to do this on the cheap, Alifes do the job decently enough at $30... You just need to watch it in case they fail and their analog dials aren't very accurate. You can get either of these at The Bean Farm (http://beanfarm.com) under Temperature Control.

Ball pythons can be very stubborn feeders. To start, next time you get his feeders, get a small rat. Nothing bigger than his usual adult mice. See how he takes to one or two of these. If he switches easily, you can start moving him up in size until he's on an appropriate sized rat. Do you feed live or frozen-thaw? If live, start planning switching him to frozen/thaw. This can be a chore in and of itself, but I'm sure the folks on B-P.net can guide you through this successfully. Live is very dangerous. Mice, at least, are significantly smaller than your snake, and have smaller teeth and lesser jaw strength. When you get into rats, feeding live becomes very dangerous. At the very least, once you have him switched to rats, start stunning the prey before feeding (if you don't already) so it's too dizzy and otherwise distracted to fight back as quickly as it would otherwise. Ideally, you would start killing the rats immediately before feeding. They often take to pre-killed easily enough, which is one very big step closer to switching the snake to frozen/thaw prey.

I hope this is helpful to you. Any more questions, feel free to ask or direct them to the members of Ball-pythons.net. Good luck getting him back into good spirits.

 

[ReptiMama2]

I haven't fed him rats, even small ones, because I've been worried about them being to big for him. I've read and heard too many stories of snakes eating food that was too large and throwing it up or getting sick. I just started feeding him more mice.

"Why didn't you do the same for your ball python? " I didn't go into it totally blind, I did do some research, mostly reading books like this: http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Owning-Ball-Python/dp/0793802601 I wasn't as computer savvy back then and didn't use it for forums and such. Thank you for the BP website, I've just registered there and look forward to looking around.

I was thinking I may have been keeping it too cool for him and was actually thinking of raising the temps. but I will check them again and see if they are too high.

Here are some pics of his set up I took today:

 

[Floof]

I'm glad to hear you've registered at the bp forum. I'm sorry if I came off as rude; I guess I get fed up sometimes and forget that not everyone is the constant, compulsive researcher that I am.

You should keep in mind that, just like with beardies, not all care books are created equal. I have never read that book in particular, but have been told by BP keepers that the only BP care book worth the money is one by, I believe, Kevin Mccurley? I may be off slightly on the last name.

When it comes to rats vs mice, if he's big enough for several adult mice at a time (appx 25 grams apiece) I'm sure he's large enough for at least a small rat (50-100 g, usually). If you're concerned, you can just as easily start with rats the size of adult mice. Don't underestimate him... BPs can easily swallow and digest a meal slightly larger than they are around. They're more flexible than they look.

Three things that strike me about your enclosure, all coming back to the snakes feeling of security... keep in mind while reading that wild balls spend much of their time hiding in termite mounds and similar places--dark, humid, and cramped.

1) It's very open. Balls like short, crowded spaces, where hiding is easy. You can accommodate this need in your current enclosure by adding lots of hiding places and greenery (fake plants, vines, etc).

2) There is no hide on the left (cool?) side. The more hides the better, and the more cramped the hide the better it is. The half log may even be too open. I like the exo terra faux rock "caves" for commercial snake hides since they only have one small opening and it's easy to find them in a size that is perfectly snug for your snake. Cheaper options include cardboard boxes with one small entrance hole cut in the front or top, among others. If you want, I'll compile a list and examples of good DIY and "improvised" hides tomorrow.

3) The light. Ball pythons are nocturnal, and having their enclosures lit up can seriously stress them out. Plus lights can seriously dry out the enclosure, which isn't good for your humidity loving ball. In other words, ditch the light.

As for temps.. It is possible that his ambient temps are low. Though extremely high temps are bad for them, they are still somewhat tropical and need a certain warmth to stay healthy. If the room he's in stays above 75, you don't need anything more than the heat pad. As low as 70, insulating the enclosure a bit (foam background, cover part of the top with plastic wrap to hold in heat) will work perfectly fine. Once you hit the 60s, you need to start thinking about alternative heat sources to keep temps in a comfortable range. Ceramic heat emitters let off heat but not light, and, if you can keep humidity up despite it (very drying), can be used effectively to boost ambient heat without flooding the enclosure with light. These need to be monitored closely with a good thermometer or maybe even put on their own thermostat, though, as they can get quite hot. Even if you use a CHE to boost ait temps into the high 70s/low 80s, it's still good to have that 95 hot spot (regulated heat pad) for th e snake to retreat to when digesting or otherwise thermoregulating.

That's it for now... my thumbs are killing me! Sorry if this post is jumbled. Formulating posts via the phone is by no means easy.

 

[ReptiMama2]

It is okay, I understand that sometimes it is hard to convey true emotion through a computer

I'll try a small rat the next time I feed him and see how he does with that and go from there.

The left side is actually the warm side, it has the heating pad under it, and the other side is the cool side. I'm thinking of getting a ceramic heater for the warm side too though cause I don't feel much heat coming from that heating pad up through the substrate. Since he stays at my work and I think all the HVAC is turned off in the evening want to get more to keep him warm especially with the winter coming on. Usually I have more greenery over there around that stick propped up in the corner that makes it more enclosed.

I usually mist him to keep the humidity up in the tank. And the lights go off around 4 pm and stay off until about 7 am. And they are off all day on the weekends.

I'm hoping to remember to take a measuring tape with me tomorrow and actually measure his length again since he shed recently then I'll have a better idea as to his actual size.

What are signs of stress?

 

[Floof]

If he takes well to rats, start thinking about spacing his feedings out more. Ideally, an adult ball python should be fed on an appropriately sized rat once every 2-3 weeks.

A CHE is a good idea if there's a risk of the temperatures dropping too low. Utilize a thermostat so you don't have to worry about the temps fluctuating as the heaters come on and go off at the building. If you decide to go high-end on your heat pad's thermostat, Herpstat sells a "Herpstat II" that's basically two thermostats in one. I own one, and LOVE it.

To make sure he has access to an area with good humidity, even if the rest of the enclosure dries out due to the CHE, you can utilize a humid hide... Basically a sterilite or similar tub, large enough to fit the snake, filled with sphagnum moss and kept moist. These are very useful. I've used them with excellent luck for corn snakes, boas, and ball pythons alike, among other things, to create humid micro-climates in otherwise "too" dry enclosures (usually indicated by bad (incomplete/piecey) sheds, at least in the case of the snakes). These especially help if you can't be there to mist as often as you would otherwise need to.

Though greenery is nice, and can help keep the enclosure nice and secure-feeling for the snake, nothing beats a good, enclosed hide... especially on the warm side! When they're digesting is the time that they feel the most vulnerable, and are the most in need of a good hide. I highly recommend getting a good hide for the warm side, at least so he has that option.

Just like illness, snakes will often hide signs of stress until it's a serious problem, because, if they showed that weakness in the wild, they'd pretty quickly become something's meal.

Signs of stress can be so small they're nearly unnoticeable... When handling a stressed snake, you'll often see the snake doesn't move around much and doesn't tongue-flick much. A healthy, relaxed snake will actively tongue-flick as it investigates its surroundings, and will move around some, even if it's minimal. As for a stressed snake in its enclosure, it'll often refuse to move much. In the case of a ball python, you may see it frequently curled into a defensive ball. Some snakes will hide constantly and refuse to come out, but this can be an especially difficult one to spot because some snakes are just shy and hide constantly regardless of whether they're stressed. Poor sheds can also be a sign of stress, but it can sometimes be difficult to determine whether it's because of stress, lack of humidity, or both (since lack of humidity can often cause stress, as well).

The more obvious signs include defensive behavior--hissing, s-coiling, and sometimes striking. In the case of ball pythons, you again have the defensive ball. As well are refusal to feed and regurgitation. Weight loss, which ties in some to refusal to feed, is also sometimes cited as a symptom of stress, though it's more often indicative of a parasite or other illness. (Healthy ball pythons will lose very little weight even in an especially long feeding strike... Some may refuse feed for a full year and not lose any noticeable weight.)

Stress can also cause illness, since it lowers the immune system. If the snake develops symptoms of an illness or parasite, these can often be considered indirect signs of stress and you need not only to correct the illness and whatever environmental issue may have caused the illness, but also remove whatever sources of stress may have lowered the snake's immune system.

When you go to measure his size--snakes are actually best measured by weight. Though length is nice to know, it doesn't really tell much. Weight is a much better indicator to health, size, what size prey you should be feeding, that sort of thing. Your snake could be any length, really, and snakes vary so much that length just doesn't tell you anything. To give you an example, my corn snake is a little over 3 feet long, roughly, but quite slender at almost 250 grams. I know corn snakes that are 3 feet long and anywhere from 300 to 600 grams. I would never be able to base what she might be able to eat on her length because, while a 3 ft/600 g corn might be able to take as large a prey item as a rat weanling (50 grams or so), my 3 ft/250 g corn would regurgitate anything larger than her usual small adult mouse (25 grams). Even within the same species, snakes are built differently. Length won't tell you much except, maybe, if your snake is fat... And even then, not really, because what's "fat" for one snake's build may be "normal" for your snake's build.

What I'm trying to say, in a probably round-about way (not the best writer, lol), is it's better to track your snake's size by weight. The standard measurement used is grams. You can get a cheap gram scale at a store like Walmart (look for kitchen scales that will measure at least up to 7 lbs or 3000 or so grams, in that range, so you can catch the whole spectrum of "normal" ball python weights) that will work perfectly fine for this.

 

[ReptiMama2]

If he will sit still long enough I can weigh him at work I have equipment there. I have not noticed any of the signs you listed of stress so that is good. He is pretty active both in his enclosure and when I have him out. He tongue flicks pretty good, usually ends up getting my nose :shock: that is an interesting feeling! LOL And he doesn't hiss, strike, or ball up. I'm going to check the BP site too, when I tried it earlier it kept redirecting me All in all I think he is pretty healthy he just seems small to me compared to other pictures I've seen and other Balls I've seen that were roughly his age and I didn't know what could cause that. He's such a good snake, even if he is a runt LOL

 

[Floof]

Perfect! Can't wait to see what he comes out as. Keep in mind male ball pythons stay much smaller than females. If you don't already know his sex, my guess would have to be male. My male was 1200 grams and 3 ft, where my female was a much, much fatter 1700 or so grams at 4 ft (and small for a female, due to being a very poor feeder in her previous home due to bad temperature regulation--it was always either too hot or too cold). The point being, yours could just be a rather small male... Which, naturally, would make him look much smaller than other peoples' similarly aged ball pythons. I suppose we won't really know either way until you weigh him and/or he starts growing (or not) after getting switched to rats.

Good! He does sound quite healthy and un-stressed. Lucky you to get an easy-going BP... lol!

Are you typing in the address right? Remember it's Ball-Pythons.net. Don't forget the hyphen, the "s," or the .net (not .com or .org), and it should work fine.

 

[ReptiMama2]

Well, he is MUCH smaller than your male for sure! I weighed him today on a triple beam balance and he came out to be around 350 grams. We'll have to see how he'll do after being switched to rats. I was wondering if the feeding could be a reason he was small.

 

[Floof]

Oh, wow, that IS small!!! At that size, too, I can see where you were concerned about the size of rats. Definitely start with a very SMALL rat to start. Maybe even a rat pup (the developmental equivalent of a mouse hopper, one stage before weanling), which should be a little bit bigger than an adult mouse, and move on up depending on how he does with it. Now, obviously you can't do this with live prey (which I don't recall you saying if you used live or pre-killed), but if you feed frozen/thaw or otherwise pre-killed prey, try slitting holes in the back of the rodent (3 or 4 horizontal slits). It'll help a lot with the digestion process.

He probably will gain weight and grow on the rats, since they have a much higher fat content and digestion will be more efficient with the one prey item, but I can't help thinking even a ball python fed strictly mice should be larger than that at his age... So, I have to wonder if there really is something medically wrong. My first thought is parasites. How does his poop look? Is it runny or otherwise "weird" looking at all? Any little weird specks (i.e. tapeworm segments, that would look like grains of rice) in the fecal matter? It might be worth taking a sample to a good vet to be tested for parasites, just to be sure that isn't a factor. You can find a list of herp vets in your area at http://herpvetconnection.com, if you don't already know of one.

I can't tell from the pictures if he's underweight.. Does his skin sag at all? Is he thick and firm feeling? A healthy ball python actually looks kind of fat--almost "round," really. Here's an old picture of my male BP that might give you an idea of a healthy male ball python's physique.

 

[ReptiMama2]

He looks about like the picture you posted. I'll see if I can get a good one of him on Monday. I don't notice anything unusual about his poop, not runny and I haven't noticed any weird specks in it. I'll check out that site for a vet, since we just moved I need to find a new one anyway. I also haven't noticed him sitting in his water which I've read can be a sign of parasites, external I'm assuming.

 

[Floof]

Sitting in his water would be an indicator of either really low humidity or mites, which are similar to a fleas and lice and look like tiny little black specks (it's often said to look like pepper has been sprinkled in the water after an infested snake soaks in its water dish for a while). They wouldn't have much to do with the snake not gaining weight (they just suck blood, where internal parasites feed off whatever comes down the intestines), and you would have noticed them a long time ago if he had them.

Weird, at such a small weight I'd expect him to be at least skinny. I guess that means he's just not growing. Are the mice you're feeding him fully grown adult mice? Your situation is starting to remind me of a ball python I once saw who was the size of a hatchling (under 100 grams) at 3 years old because the owner only fed him pinky mice, never anything larger. Considering he doesn't look underweight, I find myself going back to the prey item issue. It would make sense, if you're feeding him juvenile mice or, say, only one adult mouse a week, for him to stay at such a small size... It's the fact that you've said you feed him.. 2 or 3, was it? adult mice each week, which would have him at a larger size than 350 grams, that still has me unsure about the prey items being the main cause.

Have you posted on the Ball python forum for their opinions, especially now that you have a gram weight on him? Being especially experienced with balls, the members there may be able to give you more insight into what could be going on...