Rejecting Greens + Veggies

[BrucesMom]

Our Bruce is about a year old. We got him at about 9 months old in October. He loves his bugs. Like LOVES his bugs. Would eat 100 a day, I think, if we let him. The reptile store where we bought him said it’s time to dial back the bugs because he should start eating more greens at this time. But, actually, Bruce has decided he no longer wants his salad AT ALL! The veggies he used to love (butternut squash and radicchio especially) he now won’t eat at all. We’ve tried other foods—zucchini, dandelion greens, turnip greens, etc.—too. He’s just rejecting anything that isn’t bugs now. I’m worried that he won’t thrive if he keeps this up. The store said we could try dialing back the bugs and limit his consumption so that he’ll, hopefully, eat more salad… but it feels cruel. Normally he’ll eat 20-30 BSF larva, 8-10 dubia roaches and 6-8 mealies per feeding (once daily at this point) but is often looking for more even after that. Up until the last week or so, he’d been pretty good at eating at least SOME salad. He’d even get excited and chase around piece of purple “greens” like a game because he enjoyed them so much. I’m not sure what’s going on! He’s our first reptile pet and we want to do a good job.

Other than the food stuff, he seems content. He kind of runs around at the front of his cage when he wants time out in the house. He enjoys morning snuggles to warm up at the start of the day. Maybe 1-2 days a week he’s lazy and won’t really “get up” until an hour or two after his light has come on, but he’s a pretty active guy overall. His poops are normal based on my research (though he’s stopped going daily just this past week, now more like every other.)

Should we be worried and take some kind of action? Or will he eventually eat the salad? Now that he’s hit that year-ish mark, we’re kind of at a loss for how to transition him towards fewer bugs if that’s all he wants to eat. Help!

 

[Claudiusx]

Should we be worried and take some kind of action? Or will he eventually eat the salad? Now that he’s hit that year-ish mark, we’re kind of at a loss for how to transition him towards fewer bugs if that’s all he wants to eat. Help!

The simplest solution is to stop offering bugs all together. Only offer salads. Offer a fresh salad every day and he doesn't start getting bugs at all until he's started to eat his salad.

Dragons are smart, they won't let themselves starve to death. He knows salad is food, he's choosing not to eat the salad because he knows you're going to give him insects eventually. You need to fix this way of thinking with him because salads are extremely important to their health, and he should have been eating them from day 1.

It might sound cruel but trust me, he will eat the salads once he gets hungry enough. He knows it is food, he won't let himself starve.

Once he starts eating salads you can slowly start introducing bugs again.

And I know it wasn't your original question, but I would suggest looking into other substrate options. I'm not against loose substrates at all, but bark chips are probably in the top two worst (IMO) substrates for dragons.

-Brandon

 

[BrucesMom]

The simplest solution is to stop offering bugs all together. Only offer salads. Offer a fresh salad every day and he doesn't start getting bugs at all until he's started to eat his salad.

Dragons are smart, they won't let themselves starve to death. He knows salad is food, he's choosing not to eat the salad because he knows you're going to give him insects eventually. You need to fix this way of thinking with him because salads are extremely important to their health, and he should have been eating them from day 1.

It might sound cruel but trust me, he will eat the salads once he gets hungry enough. He knows it is food, he won't let himself starve.

Once he starts eating salads you can slowly start introducing bugs again.

And I know it wasn't your original question, but I would suggest looking into other substrate options. I'm not against loose substrates at all, but bark chips are probably in the top two worst (IMO) substrates for dragons.

-Brandon

We saw so many different substrate options and this is what the reptile store recommended to us. They talked about the issues with potential impaction with smaller substrates and recommended this one because it’s all larger nuggets. Are there other issues we should look out for? Or potential problems they didn’t mention?

 

[Claudiusx]

issues with potential impaction with smaller substrates and recommended this one because it’s all larger nuggets.

I'd argue that the woodchips are a greater impaction risk because if the dragon does decide to get curious and eat a piece, it would be much more difficult to pass than some grains of sand. Sand does not really clump up and cause blockages like many people think. That train of thought mainly started with the rise in popularity of Calci-sand, which does actually clump up when wet and was leading to intestinal impactions in dragons, namely younger dragons.

I'd personally just recommend a bag of playsand from your local home improvement store if you're wanting to go loose substrate. Others use a mix of playsand and topsoil (with no fertilizers or additives).

Like I said, I'd just recommend looking into it. I'm not saying you absolutely have to change it, but petshops are a bit notorious for not really having the best advice, so its usually best to look around and do your own research too.

-Brandon

 

[BrucesMom]

I'd argue that the woodchips are a greater impaction risk because if the dragon does decide to get curious and eat a piece, it would be much more difficult to pass than some grains of sand. Sand does not really clump up and cause blockages like many people think. That train of thought mainly started with the rise in popularity of Calci-sand, which does actually clump up when wet and was leading to intestinal impactions in dragons, namely younger dragons.

I'd personally just recommend a bag of playsand from your local home improvement store if you're wanting to go loose substrate. Others use a mix of playsand and topsoil (with no fertilizers or additives).

Like I said, I'd just recommend looking into it. I'm not saying you absolutely have to change it, but petshops are a bit notorious for not really having the best advice, so its usually best to look around and do your own research too.

-Brandon

I appreciate the feedback. I’m going to feel like a real jerk dialing back on the bugs to get this guy to eat a salad! Will just continue shrinking down his bug servings. I feel AWFUL about it, but you’re right that he won’t starve himself. He just looks so dang SAD when bug time comes around if we don’t give him any. I need to keep reminding myself that (much like with parenting children) it’s a long game and not just day-by-day decision making.

 

[Claudiusx]

I understand that, and know it's hard. But cutting it cold turkey is the best way to do it. I've had to do it to dragons in the past and I've had to help countless others with it too. I've never seen people sucessfull when it gets to this point unless they cut out the bugs completely. A dragon will be content with even a significantly smaller amount of insects than it's used to. It won't feel the need to eat salad because it's still getting insects.

We often anthropomorphize our dragons, when in reality, their eating habits are much different than ours. They can very easily go a few days to even weeks without eating without any issue. Where for us, eating isn't just for survival, its for emotion an pleasure too.

I know it's hard to not feel bad about not offering bugs, but I always try to make people think of it this way. Any potential negative effect from a dragon not getting any bugs for a few days to a few weeks is significantly less damaging than a lifetime of not eating salads properly. The future of your dragons good health requires you to make a bit of a hard decision now for a longer and healthier future.

Just remember, you're not starving him. You're offering him food. He has the option to eat something all day long. When he gets over his stubbornness and his body actually tells him, hey, it's time to eat, he will start chomping on the salads again.

-Brandon

 

[NickAVD]

I understand that, and know it's hard. But cutting it cold turkey is the best way to do it. I've had to do it to dragons in the past and I've had to help countless others with it too. I've never seen people sucessfull when it gets to this point unless they cut out the bugs completely. A dragon will be content with even a significantly smaller amount of insects than it's used to. It won't feel the need to eat salad because it's still getting insects.

This is exactly what I was looking for and couldn't find an answer to. Thanks!
Previously, I assumed that it was enough to simply reduce the number of insects for the dragon to start taking an interest in greenery.
Could you please tell how to start feeding insects to a dragon after it has started eating greens and vegetables (so that he doesn't start refusing greens again)?

 

[Chris.]

In addition I think feeding a dragon that's over a year old every day (bugs) is way too often.
My girl is 11 months right now and gets bugs three times a week. My boy is two and gets them once or twice a week. He gas had some issues with greens in the past (after his first brumation; totally my fault btw) but by doing pretty much what Brandon recommended as well, he got back on track pretty fast. He will even eat some greens right after he had his bugs.

@NickAVD This worked for me: No bugs until he ate his greens, which took less than a week for Luis. Only then he would get two to three adult dubias but only to a max of two times a week. Took some time to adjust for him but he's doing fine now

 

[Claudiusx]

@NickAVD
The above is good advice. I recommend two or three feeder insects (depending on the insect) once or twice a week. I only feed adults feeders 2-3 times a week anyways, so it gets them started on the routine that they are going to be on.

-Brandon

 

[BrucesMom]

@NickAVD
The above is good advice. I recommend two or three feeder insects (depending on the insect) once or twice a week. I only feed adults feeders 2-3 times a week anyways, so it gets them started on the routine that they are going to be on.

-Brandon

I really do wish I hadn’t caved and let my kid pick a sub-adult. The last thing our household needed was more toddler energy!

Bruce wants like 20+ bugs a day. So far today he ate one bite of radicchio and some slivers of squash… about as much as he’d usually eat in one of many snack sessions before.

We got him out for some good runaround time in the house hoping if he expended some energy he’d get hungry and eat, but no luck so far. We’ll give it a few more days and hopefully he’ll course-correct quickly.

 

[Claudiusx]

It's good that he is already nibbling at it. Keep it up!

-Brandon

 

[NickAVD]

@Chris. @Claudiusx
Thank you guys for the advice! I hope the author of the topic will also find it interesting.

 

[BrucesMom]

Figured that I should give an update!

Thanks for giving me the confidence to dial back the bugs entirely until he started eating salads again! Today he ate almost his whole veg portion (a mix of radicchio and mustard greens with a few thin slices of red pepper.) Without knowing if/when he’ll next get bugs, he’s gotten used to eating his veggies quite happily. And he’ll even get out of “bed” a little faster in the morning if he sees us waving around some radicchio. He hasn’t had bugs in a few days so enjoyed a little insect feast this evening—he had about 8 super worms and a dozen small/medium dubia roaches. He was so very excited as soon as he saw me opening a container!

 

[Claudiusx]

Thanks for the update. A little tough love goes a long ways

-Brandon

 

[Sue E.]

The simplest solution is to stop offering bugs all together. Only offer salads. Offer a fresh salad every day and he doesn't start getting bugs at all until he's started to eat his salad.

Dragons are smart, they won't let themselves starve to death. He knows salad is food, he's choosing not to eat the salad because he knows you're going to give him insects eventually. You need to fix this way of thinking with him because salads are extremely important to their health, and he should have been eating them from day 1.

It might sound cruel but trust me, he will eat the salads once he gets hungry enough. He knows it is food, he won't let himself starve.

Once he starts eating salads you can slowly start introducing bugs again.

And I know it wasn't your original question, but I would suggest looking into other substrate options. I'm not against loose substrates at all, but bark chips are probably in the top two worst (IMO) substrates for dragons.

-Brandon