Natural vitamin supplementation for picky eaters

[Sue E.]

While my expertise has always been in humans, Ive been doing a lot of reading on greens and feeder insects for bearded dragons lately. Considering that vitamin A and Vitamin D are both fat soluble, it would seem to make sense that feeder insects with some fat would be appropriate (Im looking at you, superworm! Not daily, just to alternate with other feeders). Arugula is a green that is high in Vitamins A and K (a good thing since thats pretty much the only green my dragon will eat- he hates collards and kale). I continue to offer a mix of collards, dandelion greens, kale, , escarole, with spring mix and rainbow microgreens at times for variety, but its all about what they will actually eat, right? Arugula is also a low oxalate veggie. Squashes are hit and miss with him but he does love pumpkin (also a less-than weekly treat). Fat soluble vitamins are processed in and stored in the liver (in humans anyway)for up a month or more, where they can build up to unhealthy levels (unlikely with natural food consumption as long as variety is offered). Since dragons do synthesize Vitamin D3 from proper UVB, I primarily use Repticalcium without D3...only using the D3 powder once a week or less. High protein diets are tough on the kidneys and have other links to problems as well. At the same time, protein is necessary for growth and metabolism. Now that heating and lighting are not a concern for me, I want to learn more about how best to feed these little dragons to ensure their best health without the need to just dust everything with vitamins and minerals (except of course calcium on the bugs and worms). My dragon wont eat bsfl so caclium dusting the other feeders is necessary for him. Thoughts? Advice?

 

[AHBD]

I don't have a specific answer but use any supplement very sparingly. As long as he's eating a modest protein diet as you described in another thread and some veggies he should be fine, even if he's picky. I always say to use less than what the supplement company recommends because there's really no in depth study on how much is enough or too much in all circumstances for their entire lives. It's good to be interested in giving the best care like you are and hopefully Kai will stay a healthy dragon for a long time.

 

[xp29]

For my adult dragons I only do supplements every 10 days or so. For my juvies once per week and hatchlings 1 to 2 times per week. This does not include calcium, that they all get a very very lightly dusting every day. Skipping a day every ten days or so. I do not use d3 at all.

 

[xp29]

While my expertise has always been in humans, Ive been doing a lot of reading on greens and feeder insects for bearded dragons lately. Considering that vitamin A and Vitamin D are both fat soluble, it would seem to make sense that feeder insects with some fat would be appropriate (Im looking at you, superworm! Not daily, just to alternate with other feeders). Arugula is a green that is high in Vitamins A and K (a good thing since thats pretty much the only green my dragon will eat- he hates collards and kale). I continue to offer a mix of collards, dandelion greens, kale, , escarole, with spring mix and rainbow microgreens at times for variety, but its all about what they will actually eat, right? Arugula is also a low oxalate veggie. Squashes are hit and miss with him but he does love pumpkin (also a less-than weekly treat). Fat soluble vitamins are processed in and stored in the liver (in humans anyway)for up a month or more, where they can build up to unhealthy levels (unlikely with natural food consumption as long as variety is offered). Since dragons do synthesize Vitamin D3 from proper UVB, I primarily use Repticalcium without D3...only using the D3 powder once a week or less. High protein diets are tough on the kidneys and have other links to problems as well. At the same time, protein is necessary for growth and metabolism. Now that heating and lighting are not a concern for me, I want to learn more about how best to feed these little dragons to ensure their best health without the need to just dust everything with vitamins and minerals (except of course calcium on the bugs and worms). My dragon wont eat bsfl so caclium dusting the other feeders is necessary for him. Thoughts? Advice?

That was a very good read, good info
A whole lot of their needs are very similar to ours, I'm tickled we have an experienced and well versed nurse on the forum. Your insight into human medicine overlaps very nicely with beardie care

 

[Claudiusx]

I don't use a vitamin supplement at all. I really never have. Calcium is the only vitamin/mineral that a dragon will likely not get enough of through daily diet.

I want to learn more about how best to feed these little dragons to ensure their best health without the need to just dust everything with vitamins and minerals (except of course calcium on the bugs and worms). My dragon wont eat bsfl so caclium dusting the other feeders is necessary for him. Thoughts? Advice?

The simple answer is variety is key, which you already know.

From there, the answer only gets as complicated as you want to make it. My approach with it, as we don't have the vast amount of studies we have on human health, is to focus on what the main issues are, and try to negate it.

For decades, the main preventable issues with dragon health has been liver issues, MBD, and increasingly, gout. Take those issues, figure the cause (or likely cause) and adjust your diet/supplementation to mitigate those issues.

For liver issues, it's always been fatty liver disease, associated with overfeeding insects into adulthood. This started in adolescence though. Fat is necessary, for sure, but overdoing it is not. A moderate to low feeder insect diet, especially into adulthood, greatly reduces that prevalence of fatty liver disease.

MBD is the one everyone knows about. Proper UVI exposure, and proper calcium supplementation have in essence eradicated MBD. It is ONLY seen in cases where the dragon was cared for improperly for a length of time.

Gout, a recently increasing trend, which I strongly believe to be directly linked to the rise in popularity of dubia roaches, is also extremely preventable. Also linked to the overfeeding of insects into adulthood.

So the main preventable health issues we see in dragons is almost always attributable to the overconsumption of insects. Like mentioned, consumption of insects is necessary, but in smaller amounts than most people think.

From there, you just need to figure out what else you are trying to avoid, health wise, what it's cause is, and how to prevent or mitigate it. However, just as with human health, you will find that the bigger your list gets, the more conflicts you get. That's why I focus my list on what statistically have been the biggest preventable contributors to ill health.

FWIW, the staple insect for all of my adults for the better part of 20 years has been superworms. My adults get 3 superworms 2-3 times a week. I throw in other insects for variety every once in awhile, but if I do, I cut back proportionally on the superworms. IMO, this amount of superworms provides everything I am looking for out of the insect meal (protein and fat) and for the quantity, nothing that I am trying to avoid.

The rest of the diet is made up entirely of salad items, mainly leafy greens.

I hope this answered your question or gave you some insight into what you were looking for. This is a good discussion so please if I missed something or caused more confusion, let me know lol.

-Brandon

 

[Sue E.]

I don't use a vitamin supplement at all. I really never have. Calcium is the only vitamin/mineral that a dragon will likely not get enough of through daily diet.

The simple answer is variety is key, which you already know.

From there, the answer only gets as complicated as you want to make it. My approach with it, as we don't have the vast amount of studies we have on human health, is to focus on what the main issues are, and try to negate it.

For decades, the main preventable issues with dragon health has been liver issues, MBD, and increasingly, gout. Take those issues, figure the cause (or likely cause) and adjust your diet/supplementation to mitigate those issues.

For liver issues, it's always been fatty liver disease, associated with overfeeding insects into adulthood. This started in adolescence though. Fat is necessary, for sure, but overdoing it is not. A moderate to low feeder insect diet, especially into adulthood, greatly reduces that prevalence of fatty liver disease.

MBD is the one everyone knows about. Proper UVI exposure, and proper calcium supplementation have in essence eradicated MBD. It is ONLY seen in cases where the dragon was cared for improperly for a length of time.

Gout, a recently increasing trend, which I strongly believe to be directly linked to the rise in popularity of dubia roaches, is also extremely preventable. Also linked to the overfeeding of insects into adulthood.

So the main preventable health issues we see in dragons is almost always attributable to the overconsumption of insects. Like mentioned, consumption of insects is necessary, but in smaller amounts than most people think.

From there, you just need to figure out what else you are trying to avoid, health wise, what it's cause is, and how to prevent or mitigate it. However, just as with human health, you will find that the bigger your list gets, the more conflicts you get. That's why I focus my list on what statistically have been the biggest preventable contributors to ill health.

FWIW, the staple insect for all of my adults for the better part of 20 years has been superworms. My adults get 3 superworms 2-3 times a week. I throw in other insects for variety every once in awhile, but if I do, I cut back proportionally on the superworms. IMO, this amount of superworms provides everything I am looking for out of the insect meal (protein and fat) and for the quantity, nothing that I am trying to avoid.

The rest of the diet is made up entirely of salad items, mainly leafy greens.

I hope this answered your question or gave you some insight into what you were looking for. This is a good discussion so please if I missed something or caused more confusion, let me know lol.

-Brandon

I completely agree with you on the superworms! They are my favorite staple feeder too. My main problem is the gray area that my dragon falls in, with a "subadult" vs "adult" designation! Some resources say the frequency (percentage?) of insects in the subadult phase should be higher at 12-18 months, others seem to go right from under one year to "adult". My dragon is lean and Im happy with that, but he always seems hungry for insects even though he has more than enough greens offered. He is beginning to eat greens and Im glad, but not to the level he should. If he IS still growing, I dont want to deprive him of the protein he needs; at the same time, vague percentages like 60% insects, 40% greens up to 18 months, then 80% greens and 20% insects as an adult do confuse me. Well, Im totally comfortable with the 80-20 and thats what Ive been shooting for. When I took accurate measurements on him and found out he is only 17.5 inches instead of the 20-21 inches I thought I measured before, it made me wonder if he is still growing. He also seems to grow more long legged than anything (kind of like an adolescent puppy). So, that said, does that change anything? How much did you feed your dragons at 12 to 18 months..the same as you do now? Also, where do hornworms figure in as the occasional treat (less than weekly, in my case)? Not counted as they are 94% water with little nutritional value? GIven on a greens only day? Or in addition to or in place of the superworms on a bug day? (I am probably making things a bit too much, but thats kind of how I roll sigh.) I dont supplement with powdered vitamins/minerals at this point except Calcium because I feel like he gets most/all the others from diet. If he was a bit of a chubby dragon, Id have no problem with cutting things back at all, but I only do insects Mon, Wed and Fri now, pretty much in the same quantities you do. When I cut back still more to encourage more greens, he lost 20 grams. (397.9 to 377.4). He is currently 389.3, after a gain of 12 grams, a healthy weight I think, when I went back to insects 3x a week from 2x a week. He also does not eat his greens when I am in the room for his own stubborn reasons, some are gone but not all. I probably give him too many greens, again for variety.

 

[Claudiusx]

If he IS still growing, I dont want to deprive him of the protein he needs;

Right, but we don't KNOW how much protein is necessary for growth, and how much is just extra strain on the system.

at the same time, vague percentages like 60% insects, 40% greens up to 18 months, then 80% greens and 20% insects as an adult do confuse me.

I've never liked this either. What is the percentage based off of anyways if you subscribe to it? Is it based off weight of food? The volume of the food? The number of food items? The calories of the food? IMO, it was a lazy way to answer a question that just ended up sticking, and it's had a ripple effect throughout the hobby.

I would say 18-20 inches is probably average now a days for an adult dragon. In the past the average might have been north of 20, but not anymore. So your dragon being just half an inch shy of that isn't anything to worry about, and he is likely still going to grow slightly, albeit slower.

How much did you feed your dragons at 12 to 18 months

I more so subscribed to their physical structure as opposed to their age. Once they were near adult size, the insects were cut back to my adult feeding schedule. Some dragons end up reaching this adult size by 6-8 months simply because their owners over fed them. On one hand, that shows that the body is capable of processing and utilizing the extra protein and insect matter, on the other hand, dragons who are fed more conservatively and grow slower still end up reaching the same size eventually. It only stands to reason that the slow growth is healthier and easier on the body.

where do hornworms figure in as the occasional treat (less than weekly, in my case)? Not counted as they are 94% water with little nutritional value? GIven on a greens only day? Or in addition to or in place of the superworms on a bug day?

Depending on the size (I would typically feed full grown hornworms to full grown adults), 1 or two replaces the insect meal for the day.

When I cut back still more to encourage more greens, he lost 20 grams. (397.9 to 377.4).

I think I mentioned it on your thread where you asked about it, unless it was another, but that's only a 5% difference in weight, and is easily attributable to a bowel movement. If you are so inclined, the next time you get a fresh moist BM from your dragon, try and weigh it, it might ease your mind a bit.

Weight wise, what matters more is the trend. If the change of diet over the course of a few weeks showed a significant trend downwards, that would be an indicator that you probably need to up the food intake if the weight is below acceptable standards. Otherwise, the normal day to day fluctuations in weight dont really mean much.

-Brandon

 

[Claudiusx]

As an addition to my comment above in regards to some dragons growing to adult size by 6-8 months -

It was pretty common and well known when I first got into this hobby that a bearded dragon would continue to grow for approximately the first two years of it's life. And this was typically the case, a dragon would reach it's full grown adult size by 2 years. This was long before the push to over feed on insects, and to let a dragon eat as many insects as it wants 2-3 times a day. After that advice got out, we started seeing dragons reach adult size prior to a year. But they didn't continue growing much past that. The super feeding and quick growth didn't make super large dragons, it just made super large adolescents that were adult sized.

It might be my own biases at play because I have no proof to back it up, but around this time we also started seeing many dragons making it to 4 or 5 years of age before dying. Even though when I first got into this hobby the average life expectancy was 8-12 years, and I often saw that. And this was with our T8 bulbs placed on top of our mesh screens. People now adays would lose their ever-loving mind if they had to go back and see how horrible we were to our dragons providing them with such weak UVI .

Some may blame genetics, some may blame bad breeding practices, which I'm sure play a role, but I strongly believe that the change in husbandry is to blame. Feeding being the main issue.

But, I digress.

-Brandon

 

[Sue E.]

I really like your feeding recs. I see positive things in my beardie...of course, he's only a little over a year..but he's FAST! He walks and runs very straight, no waddle at all. He supports his upper body very well with his arms, and his back legs are strong. If he were a human, I'd liken his physique to a runner's. And a lot of that is thanks to your advice!