IS D3 needed at all? If so, how much per week?

xp29

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Ruby, Sinatra, Zsa Zsa
Does your g.f know the Tigger song though ? If you haven't then you have to Google it right now, I'm sure it's on youtube. O.K, sorry to derail the thread !
I'll look it up. 😀
 

xp29

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Ruby, Sinatra, Zsa Zsa
Ok, I have some time now, so here are my thoughts and experiences.
TLDR at the bottom

Let me start by stating, because this is going to be a long response, I don't want anyone to feel upset or like they are wrong if I don't agree with their dusting habits :) I personally believe that this discussion on with or without D3 is largely a non-issue, but perhaps you can convince me otherwise. I don't think that either side of the advice is wrong, because I think both ways work. I just have my preference.

Firstly, similarly to AHBD, I too have had dragons live long into the 10's and past. My oldest being a 14 year old. However, I have NEVER used only calcium. And I don't even mean that as an exaggeration. In nearly 25 years of owning dragons, I have only used Calcium with D3, and I have always only ever bought and used the RepCal with d3. I've never bought anything else.

My dusting schedule has always been approximately every other day for babies and juvies, and once or twice a week for adults. I rarely if ever dust with a multivitamin, if this is a factor.

My reasoning for the above is from my own experience and what has worked for me, my understanding of how UV exposure works for D3 synthesis after multiple conversations with Dr. Francis Baines, and my potentially anecdotal experience of being on this site for as long as I have.

Firstly, I think a main concern (and really the only reason people say not to use D3) is the concern over vitamin D toxicity. Now to dive into this one, the question must be asked, do we think the potential from D3 toxicity comes from the supplement itself, or from the combination of our stronger UV lamps + the supplement?

If the latter, I would argue that's a non-issue. The body's mechanism for creating D3 from UVB exposure is complex. However, in a similarly complex mechanism, the body can turn off this function. It is well documented that the body will stop producing D3 from UVB exposure once the body reaches whatever set amount it determines is required.

Based on that above established fact, if the bodys D3 needs are being met by supplements, the UVB exposure will not push the body over the line into the toxic levels. It just will stop synthesizing additional D3 from the exposure.

So the next question to ask is whether or not the supplement itself can lead to D3 toxicity. The short answer is yes it could; the real question though is at what point. Does a light dusting 5x a week lead to a toxic D3 level? Does 7 times a week? What about dusting salads and insects every day? Or what if two people follow the same dusting schedule but one lightly coats their insects and another thickly coats the insects?

This is where my time on this site and my anecdotal evidence comes into play. I've been on this site for a long time now. I've seen plenty of dragons suffering from MBD, impaction, neurological disorders, a whole gambit of issues. One thing I've never seen is a dragon suffering from Vitamin D toxicity. Now the caveat to that is vitamin D toxicity likely wouldn't present as the obvious issue as the symptoms are pretty wide reaching and can also be symptoms of a host of other health issues.

So why do I personally think that this site has never seen a dragon suffering from vitamin D toxicity? Because even if the symptoms are pretty generic, one thing this site is really good about doing is going over everything about a dragons care when a dragon comes here sick. If a dragon was being offered too much calcium/d3, as a troubleshooting step, we would have recommended cutting it down. And if the dragon were to have been suffering solely from that, the change in supplementation should have reversed the issue. That has never happened here. And I have never seen a well documented case of a dragon suffering from vitamin D toxicity.

@xp29 Provided his experience with his dusting schedule, and had blood test results to back it up earlier in this thread. One thing to remember though is correlation does not equal causation. And remember, even with great UV bulbs, the body will only utilize the UVB to synthesize D3 if the body needs D3.

In the early stages of MBD, dragons will typically have a high or higher than average blood level concentration of Calcium. This is because the body compensates for the poor calcium absorption by increasing the activity of parathyroid hormone (PTH), which leeches calcium from the bones into the bloodstream. What is more important to pay attention to would be P:CA levels, as this would be a better indication of calcium metabolism, and wouldn't be as effected by factors that can affect Calcium levels in the blood such as protein levels, which do effect blood calcium levels.

TLDR:

There is probably some stuff I'm missing, but the short of it as for why I am for dusting with Calcium with D3 is because I believe the amount of D3 in the supplement is not nearly enough to cause toxicity when following a responsible dusting schedule, and because the body will not produce D3 from UVB exposure unless the body is in need of it. Supplementing with it ensures against relying on potentially improper UV setups to produce the bodys needed vitamin D.

-Brandon
"@xp29 Provided his experience with his dusting schedule, and had blood test results to back it up earlier in this thread. One thing to remember though is correlation does not equal causation. And remember, even with great UV bulbs, the body will only utilize the UVB to synthesize D3 if the body needs D3".

I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. That makes perfect sense. Personally I think the use/none use of d3 is as trivial as the arguments over humidity. If your husbandry is on par then the effects of using or not using are negligible, same for the humidity levels for a healthy dragon. I've only ever had two beardies with mbd, both came to me that way. Also I've never had humidity (high or low) cause health issues. I've kept beardies in Florida with 99% humidity and in Las Vegas with 3% zero issues. I haven't even bothered to track it in years. I think hydration is a much more pressing issue that d3 or humidity. Dehydration is going to lead to serious health issues MUCH sooner than d3 and humidity combined.
But like stated above all this is just my opinion from lots of reading and my own personal experience. Take it with a grain of salt 🧂 🙂
 
Last edited:

NickAVD

Gray-bearded Member
Beardie name(s)
Foxy
Based on that above established fact, if the bodys D3 needs are being met by supplements, the UVB exposure will not push the body over the line into the toxic levels. It just will stop synthesizing additional D3 from the exposure.
I have never heard of this.
Thanks for the information! Tell me, has this been proven somewhere, by someone?
If so, then this explains your position.
p.s.: I found what I wrote about earlier (about the absorption of D3 in the intestines of reptiles) in a handbook for a practicing herpetologist. Vitamin D3 is not absorbed in the intestines of herbivorous reptiles, i.e. this does not apply to bearded dragons.
 

NickAVD

Gray-bearded Member
Beardie name(s)
Foxy
So the next question to ask is whether or not the supplement itself can lead to D3 toxicity. The short answer is yes it could; the real question though is at what point. Does a light dusting 5x a week lead to a toxic D3 level? Does 7 times a week? What about dusting salads and insects every day? Or what if two people follow the same dusting schedule but one lightly coats their insects and another thickly coats the insects?
This is a very interesting topic! At the very beginning of my journey, I asked myself the same question. How much vitamin D3 is needed to avoid an overdose?
I searched for a long time and was able to find some information from zoos (a full-time veterinarian) and reptile farms, these are crumbs, but I found them.
According to information received from a veterinarian - herpetologist, I learned that for most reptiles, the weekly need for vitamin D3 is 100-200 IU per kilogram of body weight (for reference, the daily norm for people of all ages is 400 IU regardless of body weight).
I also found information that on farms in Panama and Costa Rica, iguanas receive 2000-3000 IU per kilogram of food with food, they are all kept in open enclosures in the sun. According to a veterinarian from one of the zoos who provided this data, in zoos, without proper UV radiation, a quarter of iguanas died in 2 years, receiving 3000 IU per kg of food weight with food.
I also learned that when treating hypovitaminosis D3, 200 IU per kilogram of body weight per week is usually prescribed orally. The course of treatment is 2-4 months.
This is a bit jumbled information, but this is all I could find about dosages D3.
If you have accurate scales, you can count the weekly dose of vitamin D3, or you can weigh the food and mix vitamins into the food, as they do on farms.
 

Claudiusx

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Original Poster
Thanks for the information! Tell me, has this been proven somewhere, by someone?
Yes it has, although not in dragons specifically that I am aware of. Very few of consequence scientific studies have been performed on beardies. However, It's a known mechanism of D3 synthesis that has been studied largely in humans and other creatures.

The only types of animals found to not have this mechanism are animals that have evolved to not need sun exposure, or to not get any. Most amphibians, deep sea creatures, cave creatures, and most invertebrates. However, of the list above, those creatures simply are unable to produce D3 from sun exposure at all, which has led the scientific community to reason that if the body can produce D3 from sunlight, it can turn it off when it needs to.

The mechanisms and pathways that allow this to happen have been found to be the same in all creatures tested that are able to produce D3 from sunlight, UVB specifically.

-Brandon
 

Figgs&Syrax

Hatchling Member
Beardie name(s)
Syrax
Yes it has, although not in dragons specifically that I am aware of. Very few of consequence scientific studies have been performed on beardies. However, It's a known mechanism of D3 synthesis that has been studied largely in humans and other creatures.

The only types of animals found to not have this mechanism are animals that have evolved to not need sun exposure, or to not get any. Most amphibians, deep sea creatures, cave creatures, and most invertebrates. However, of the list above, those creatures simply are unable to produce D3 from sun exposure at all, which has led the scientific community to reason that if the body can produce D3 from sunlight, it can turn it off when it needs to.

The mechanisms and pathways that allow this to happen have been found to be the same in all creatures tested that are able to produce D3 from sunlight, UVB specifically.

-Brandon
thats cool!!
 

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