IS D3 needed at all? If so, how much per week?

Claudiusx

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
The topic has come up a few times recently on the forum. To prevent help threads from getting sidetracked into a debate on how often D3 should be supplemented with, this thread can serve that purpose.

Remember, lets try to keep it civil. In the absence of lack of scientific studies, a persons personal experience and opinion will often be the basis of the advice they provide. Lets try to remember that, and use this thread as a good place for discussion on what best practice may or may not be.

Key questions for this thread:

Should I use calcium with our without D3?
How often should I dust with D3?
Do I need D3 at all if I have proper UVB?
What are the effects of too little D3?
What are the effects of too much D3?

Does the potential benefits outweigh the potential harm?

Of course, if you have other points you'd like to discuss, feel free. We grow as a community when we ask questions and discuss.
Feel free to even post what you've done personally, even if you're not wanting to necessarily debate the topic.

I very much have my thoughts and opinions on the topic, but I will leave it open for a bit to hear others first. Plus, I don't have time at this very moment :)

-Brandon
 
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Figgs&Syrax

Hatchling Member
Beardie name(s)
Syrax
The topic has come up a few times recently on the forum. To prevent help threads from getting sidetracked into a debate on how often D3 should be supplemented with, this thread can serve that purpose.

Remember, lets try to keep it civil. In the absence of lack of scientific studies, a person personal experience and opinion will often be the basis of the advice they provide. Lets try to remember that, and use this thread as a good place for discussion on what best practice may or may not be.

Key questions for this thread:

Should I use calcium with our without D3?
How often should I dust with D3?
Do I need D3 at all if I have proper UVB?
What are the effects of too little D3?
What are the effects of too much D3?

Does the potential benefits outweigh the potential harm?

Of course, if you have other points you'd like to discuss, feel free. We grow as a community when we ask questions and discuss.

-Brandon
thanks! personally i think uvb should be arcadia and you would be able to dust acording to your feedings. without d3 should be used more❤️
 

NickAVD

Gray-bearded Member
Beardie name(s)
Foxy
Good idea to create this topic, thank you!
I have never used calcium containing D3. At the very beginning of organizing the terrarium, I set up a UVB lamp and knew that the correct UVB radiation will allow the dragon's body to independently produce the required amount of vitamin D3, just like it happens in nature. A little later, I read scientific studies on this topic. As far as I remember, the studies consisted of determining the possibility of refusing the UVB lamp when taking vitamin D3. These studies showed that oral administration of vitamin D3 is not able to replace UVB radiation and the ability to absorb D3 through the digestive system was completely questioned. I am not sure that these studies were someone's dissertation, so I do not want to cite them as a truth that has been proven.
But for myself, I decided that a correctly configured UVB is a way to refuse D3.
Is it possible to give D3 in large quantities? I don't know, I've never heard of any cases of overdose, maybe someone in this thread will share their experience on this matter.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
According to what Allen Repashy wrote for reptiles magazine it can be toxic. Whether or not this is comletely up to date and accurate I don't know but here is an excerpt :

" From my own personal trials and after comparing notes with peers, I’ve found that calcium levels at and above 2 percent can cause problems. Calcium in high doses can act as a binder, which inhibits absorption of essential nutrients, such as other vitamins and minerals. In the presence of too much vitamin D3, excess calcium can calcify internal organs. As anyone who has ever taken calcium for indigestion should know, calcium neutralizes stomach acids, which are necessary for the digestion and absorption of all nutrients. Balance is key. Giving a reptile a large dose of calcium is not the same as giving it a smaller amount with each feeding."

"Getting the dosage right is not easy. Vitamin D3 is fat-soluble, and excess supplementation can create toxicity, which can prove fatal. Deficiency, on the other hand, can cause secondary hyperparathyroidism, which is not usually detected until it becomes severe enough to cause symptoms such as “floppy jaw,” or broken or kinked limbs and spines."

"Quality UVB-producing bulbs can replace the need for dietary vitamin D3, but all bulbs decrease in UVB output over time and must be replaced on a regular basis. Testing the bulb frequently with a UVB-bulb meter will help you monitor its level of effectiveness."
 

xp29

BD.org Addict
Photo Comp Winner
Beardie name(s)
Ruby, Sinatra, Zsa Zsa
Way early on with Chomp and Zen I had blood work done on both. They had proper uvb and both came back with higher than expected calcium levels (still within a safe range) The vet asked if I used d3, I did not. She said I should cut back one or two day per week on the calcium. She also told me with the results she was seeing to not use calcium with d3 because it could push the calcium level above safe limits.
My take away was goog uvb ='s no need for d3 supplement.
If I were using a t8 bulb or had a very tall habitat I might would reconsider using d3 until I could replace the t8 with a t5.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Way early on with Chomp and Zen I had blood work done on both. They had proper uvb and both came back with higher than expected calcium levels (still within a safe range) The vet asked if I used d3, I did not. She said I should cut back one or two day per week on the calcium. She also told me with the results she was seeing to not use calcium with d3 because it could push the calcium level above safe limits.
My take away was goog uvb ='s no need for d3 supplement.
If I were using a t8 bulb or had a very tall habitat I might would reconsider using d3 until I could replace the t8 with a t5.
Good to know, I've read this from other owners a few times as well. I have used D3 sparingly through the years and my 2 boys Buddy [ lived to 12 but died this past July from suspected GNC cancer ] and Tigger is still alive going on 13 in a few months .
 

xp29

BD.org Addict
Photo Comp Winner
Beardie name(s)
Ruby, Sinatra, Zsa Zsa
Good to know, I've read this from other owners a few times as well. I have used D3 sparingly through the years and my 2 boys Buddy [ lived to 12 but died this past July from suspected GNC cancer ] and Tigger is still alive going on 13 in a few months .
Wow you must be doing everything just right, thats ling lives. I'm sorry to hear you list Buddy. (On a side note I end up calling all my males Buddy as a nickname)
Please tell me tigger is a tiger stripe 😁😁 that would to AWESOME 👌 😀😀
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
The Tigger is indeed a tiger, leatherback too. Hatched + raised in my home like his brother Buddy.

1735519648881.jpg
 

Claudiusx

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
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Original Poster
Ok, I have some time now, so here are my thoughts and experiences.
TLDR at the bottom

Let me start by stating, because this is going to be a long response, I don't want anyone to feel upset or like they are wrong if I don't agree with their dusting habits :) I personally believe that this discussion on with or without D3 is largely a non-issue, but perhaps you can convince me otherwise. I don't think that either side of the advice is wrong, because I think both ways work. I just have my preference.

Firstly, similarly to AHBD, I too have had dragons live long into the 10's and past. My oldest being a 14 year old. However, I have NEVER used only calcium. And I don't even mean that as an exaggeration. In nearly 25 years of owning dragons, I have only used Calcium with D3, and I have always only ever bought and used the RepCal with d3. I've never bought anything else.

My dusting schedule has always been approximately every other day for babies and juvies, and once or twice a week for adults. I rarely if ever dust with a multivitamin, if this is a factor.

My reasoning for the above is from my own experience and what has worked for me, my understanding of how UV exposure works for D3 synthesis after multiple conversations with Dr. Francis Baines, and my potentially anecdotal experience of being on this site for as long as I have.

Firstly, I think a main concern (and really the only reason people say not to use D3) is the concern over vitamin D toxicity. Now to dive into this one, the question must be asked, do we think the potential from D3 toxicity comes from the supplement itself, or from the combination of our stronger UV lamps + the supplement?

If the latter, I would argue that's a non-issue. The body's mechanism for creating D3 from UVB exposure is complex. However, in a similarly complex mechanism, the body can turn off this function. It is well documented that the body will stop producing D3 from UVB exposure once the body reaches whatever set amount it determines is required.

Based on that above established fact, if the bodys D3 needs are being met by supplements, the UVB exposure will not push the body over the line into the toxic levels. It just will stop synthesizing additional D3 from the exposure.

So the next question to ask is whether or not the supplement itself can lead to D3 toxicity. The short answer is yes it could; the real question though is at what point. Does a light dusting 5x a week lead to a toxic D3 level? Does 7 times a week? What about dusting salads and insects every day? Or what if two people follow the same dusting schedule but one lightly coats their insects and another thickly coats the insects?

This is where my time on this site and my anecdotal evidence comes into play. I've been on this site for a long time now. I've seen plenty of dragons suffering from MBD, impaction, neurological disorders, a whole gambit of issues. One thing I've never seen is a dragon suffering from Vitamin D toxicity. Now the caveat to that is vitamin D toxicity likely wouldn't present as the obvious issue as the symptoms are pretty wide reaching and can also be symptoms of a host of other health issues.

So why do I personally think that this site has never seen a dragon suffering from vitamin D toxicity? Because even if the symptoms are pretty generic, one thing this site is really good about doing is going over everything about a dragons care when a dragon comes here sick. If a dragon was being offered too much calcium/d3, as a troubleshooting step, we would have recommended cutting it down. And if the dragon were to have been suffering solely from that, the change in supplementation should have reversed the issue. That has never happened here. And I have never seen a well documented case of a dragon suffering from vitamin D toxicity.

@xp29 Provided his experience with his dusting schedule, and had blood test results to back it up earlier in this thread. One thing to remember though is correlation does not equal causation. And remember, even with great UV bulbs, the body will only utilize the UVB to synthesize D3 if the body needs D3.

In the early stages of MBD, dragons will typically have a high or higher than average blood level concentration of Calcium. This is because the body compensates for the poor calcium absorption by increasing the activity of parathyroid hormone (PTH), which leeches calcium from the bones into the bloodstream. What is more important to pay attention to would be P:CA levels, as this would be a better indication of calcium metabolism, and wouldn't be as effected by factors that can affect Calcium levels in the blood such as protein levels, which do effect blood calcium levels.

TLDR:

There is probably some stuff I'm missing, but the short of it as for why I am for dusting with Calcium with D3 is because I believe the amount of D3 in the supplement is not nearly enough to cause toxicity when following a responsible dusting schedule, and because the body will not produce D3 from UVB exposure unless the body is in need of it. Supplementing with it ensures against relying on potentially improper UV setups to produce the bodys needed vitamin D.

-Brandon
 
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Claudiusx

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
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Original Poster
Oh I did forget something. @AHBD mentioned Allen Repashy, who I respect as an intelligent person when it comes to the topic of reptile nutrition. However, I believe his thoughts on D3 toxicity to be slightly misguided, or taken out of context. I believe Allen's main issue in his statement is that high levels of calcium can lead to issues, and D3 can exacerbate that based on the fact that D3 helps with the absorption of Calcium. I've followed Allen for awhile, and I am not aware of any studies he's found or done in regards specifically to vitamin D.

An interesting monkey wrench to through in on the specific topic of excess calcium leading to health issues (which I fully agree with) and vitamin D contributing to that in the presence of excess calcium.

Vitamin K has a specific pathway that prevents Calcium from being deposited in organs and soft tissues. The number one source of Vitamin K for our dragons (And humans really..) is leafy greens. So, making sure that your dragon eats its greens is also a huge help to this whole discussion over vitamin D and calcium.

One thing I know for a fact me and @AHBD agree on is the importance of greens, even from the age of hatchlings. We've always known that they are important, but as we continue to grow and learn and advance in this hobby, we learn even more so why.

So to button up my thoughts:

Do I think you're wrong if you don't supplement with D3? No, I think in most cases, our more advanced UV lights can make up for that. Do I think one way is better than another? No, I really don't. I don't think it's a make or break issue to the health of our dragons, all other factors considered.

I do what I do because it's what has worked for me, and I don't believe it to be dangerous. I believe it does it's job sufficiently, it supplements whatever the body is lacking from potentially improper UV setups. Remember, if the UV setup is just fine and you're supplementing, the body just won't make as much D3 from the UV as it would need to if you were not supplementing.

However, if you aren't supplementing and your UV isn't up to par, or it's old, or your dragon isn't spending enough time in it because your temperatures aren't right or some other factor, then your dragon is much more likely to suffer effects of low calcium (low D3) than it would be to suffer effects of high D3.

-Brandon
 
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AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Very, very thought provoking and valuable analysis Brandon.
So that's a very good line of reasoning and I'll probably remember bits at a time to reply about.
As for never reading that a dragon died from D3 toxicity, there are many dragons that die from unknown causes , either suddenly or doing poorly over a period of time and many, many of these were not taken to a vet after they died at home or were tested or had a necropsy done.
I think that Allen mentioned that excess calcium + D3 could be deposited around the joints [ or I read it somewhere else recently and will try to locate it ] and they could cause problems that actually mimic MBD.
When I posted my thoughts and the excerpt from Allen's article I mentioned that I wasn't sure if it was all factual and up to date info. It's worth mentioning that he himseld stated in the long article that there's much to learn about the subject of calcium, vitamin and D3 needs of beardies.
I think that I too used more D3 in the past and changed at some point but I have always used some. Your experience is valid and very helpful to this conversation and I appreciate how are so reasonable and although you started the thread you patiently waited for the replies of others before offering your thoughts and experience. It's very convincing as well. BTW, did you speak with Frances Baine personallly ? She's at the top in her field of uvb expertise .
 

Claudiusx

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
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as for never reading that a dragon died from D3 toxicity, there are many dragons that die from unknown causes , either suddenly or doing poorly over a period of time and many, many of these were not taken to a vet after they died at home or were tested or had a necropsy done.
Absolutely right. And the major flaw in my anecdotal evidence. However, I do think it most cases of unknown deaths it's due to poor dietary choices made throughout life such as fatty liver disease, gout, heart issues, or some type of cancer. My thoughts on cancer in beardies is a whole 'nother rabbit hole to go down though.

A lot of my husbandry choices have changed over the years too. One thing I've learned as I've matured in this hobby is that very few things are set in stone. Very few things are absolute fact. Many things are opinion, and just because an opinion differs, doesn't mean that the thought process or care behind it is wrong.

In regards to Dr. Baines, she lives on the wrong side of the pond, so we've never spoken face to face, but we've had multiple personal conversations via email about reptiles and lighting over the years. She is who helped me with the Sunblaster issue that is still linked in my signature. I'm sure you're aware but she's also a member on here, though through her own admittance, doesn't like the arguments that usually come about through these discussions on the forums (hence my goal of trying to keep things mellow and allow everyone the opportunity to post their thoughts and opinions).

-Brandon
 

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