I learned how to get his mouth open...AFTER the fact lol

Well, as I posted earlier, Kai bit me when I tried (gently) to open his mouth. A little later, I see an Aussie vet you tube video where he says to get them to open up their mouth, you cover their eyes with your thumbs (not hard). He had a wild beardie and sure enough, it opened its mouth with that trick! Of course, I find that out AFTER the fact!

 

[xp29]

Well, as I posted earlier, Kai bit me when I tried (gently) to open his mouth. A little later, I see an Aussie vet you tube video where he says to get them to open up their mouth, you cover their eyes with your thumbs (not hard). He had a wild beardie and sure enough, it opened its mouth with that trick! Of course, I find that out AFTER the fact!

I'll have to look that video up!!!

 

[Sue E.]

I'll have to look that video up!!!

The videos are from Dr Jonathan Howard AKA BeardieVet. He is the worlds leading expert on bearded dragons, having done years of research on wild bearded dragons in Australia (where he practices). I watched a few of his videos and learned a lot! His feeding recs are spot on with what @Claudiusx says. Apparently the ideal weight for a male bearded dragon in the wild is 372 grams, for a female less than that. He says we should aim for no more than 10% over that in captivity. Variety in feeding is key. Portion sizes. He recommends bugs 2x week and veggies 3x-4x week, with a day or so of fasting for optimal health! There is another site on you tube, reptiles and research, that goes into more depth on lighting. I didnt really understand the uva part well..Ill have to dig into that more, as they use this type of light that I didnt really understand much about at all in addition to? in place of? the standard basking bulb. Its like a next level thing...the basking lights we use are fine but Im going to get an IR gun. He says to measure the dragons back with that to make sure they are reaching the ideal temp when basking to allow for heat to penetrate thru their bodies. They do use probes also but those are just for surfaces. He says the dragons should only ideally be basking ideally about 25 minutes in the morning and again in the afternoon, much more than that means their are not reaching their ideal temps. So that is pretty much what you said too about basking. He talked about when they seek shade but remain alert and active during the day, calling it something like...enervation? Idk have to look that up. That is what Kai does a lot duringbthe day and I used to worry about him not staying at basking long enough. Nope! They are supposed to do that. Cool stuff..Ill be reading more on that.

 

[Sue E.]

Well, Arcadia reptile recommends the use of a deep heat projector in conjunction with and next to a bright white halogen bulb to provide the full spectrum of uva and uvc in addition to the uvb, with the deep heat projector and halogen bulbs controlled by a thermostat. This is pretty deep for me so Ill have to look more into it...thoughts from you @xp29 ? Thoughts from @Claudiusx and @AHBD as well?

 

[Claudiusx]

The halogen bulb already produces UVA, as well as the UVB bulb. You don't want ANY amount of UVC in the enclosure, and you don't want to be exposed to it either. The deep heat projector shouldn't produce any UVC.

Thoughts are - it's like adding suede floor mats in your fancy Mercedes car. You already have a capable and fancy car. Do the floor mats make it just that tad bit more fancy? Sure. Does it really change your driving experience? No.

If you want to add it to your enclosure and you can make it work, go for it. Do you need it, absolutely not.

-Brandon

 

[Sue E.]

The halogen bulb already produces UVA, as well as the UVB bulb. You don't want ANY amount of UVC in the enclosure, and you don't want to be exposed to it either. The deep heat projector shouldn't produce any UVC.

Thoughts are - it's like adding suede floor mats in your fancy Mercedes car. You already have a capable and fancy car. Do the floor mats make it just that tad bit more fancy? Sure. Does it really change your driving experience? No.

If you want to add it to your enclosure and you can make it work, go for it. Do you need it, absolutely not.

-Brandon

Sorry, its not uvc, its IR-A and IR-C. Like I say, its a bit beyond my understanding so I have more to learn in that respect before I would even change anything. But he mentions that for optimal metabolism and disease resistance by heightening immune response, the back of the dragon itself should reach a temp of 104 to 107 when basking measured with an IR gun. I dont think Kai reaches that. He seems very healthy now but he is a slow pooper and I have to wonder if his temps have anything to do with that. I run a 150watt basking bulb in a deep dome on the screen but Im still struggling with getting temps in that range...his are more like 97-100 although they fluctuate based on where on his branch he sits.

 

[AHBD]

Sorry to hear that Kai bit you, did you give him a stern lecture about biting mommy ? A time out is in order too. No bugs for an entire day --- oh wait, that's already his regimen.

I've watched the entire 3 + hour video by beardie vet, lots of very good info for sure. I do disagree on a few things he recommends including the proposed weight of beardies being a bit too low . I also disagree with the feeding amounts of hatchlings and of babies . Other than that I agree with most of his recommendations.

 

[Sue E.]

@Claudiusx and @AHBD your words and thoughts are golden to me because you both have so much experience and long lived healthy dragons! I just like learning stuff.

 

[Sue E.]

Sorry to hear that Kai bit you, did you give him a stern lecture about biting mommy ? A time out is in order too. No bugs for an entire day --- oh wait, that's already his regimen.

I've watched the entire 3 + hour video by beardie vet, lots of very good info for sure. I do disagree on a few things he recommends including the proposed weight of beardies being a bit too low . I also disagree with the feeding amounts of hatchlings and of babies . Other than that I agree with most of his recommendations.

Haha, we are over it! I cant believe how much he drank during and in his bath though. He never drinks from the eyedropper for me. Poor guy was really thirsty!

 

[AHBD]

Yeah some will drink in the bath, that's always a valid option !

 

[Sue E.]

Yeah some will drink in the bath, that's always a valid option !

I wonder if its because the water was warm..maybe he doesnt like his water cold.

 

[Claudiusx]

Sorry, its not uvc, its IR-A and IR-C.

That makes more sense

the back of the dragon itself should reach a temp of 104 to 107

To be honest, I shudder when I hear people recommending a basking surface temp of 95 degrees. Even 95-100 is low in my opinion.

From my understanding, 95 degrees is the minimum temperature required to even facilitate proper digestion. It makes sense, space allowing, to aim for a basking surface around 105, or slightly higher for non-adults. The dragon can pick if it wants to bask right at the 105 spot, or if it wants to be an inch to the side where it's a little cooler. If you are only offering such a low temperature, the dragon has no choice but to pick that spot.

Couple caveats with that though -

As with anything, advice is just general guidelines. We can't possibly have individual tailored advice for each dragon in each situation, which is why given advice needs to cover the majority of cases. Some dragons, especially older ones, tend to like slightly cooler temperatures.

One of my old girls, Naughtica, was notorious for refusing to bask unless her temperature was at what she specifically liked. She would not bask at 105. She would not bask at 100. She would not bask at 98. She would only bask if her basking surface temp was exactly at 96. And boy was she a pain at times lol.

But, that is part of being a pet owner. In the beginning you start off with the general advice; you learn and you grow. As you gain more experience, and learn the subtle idiosyncrasies of your dragon, you learn what it likes, and what it doesn't like. After years, I learned some very specific and odd quarks with Naughtica, one of which being that she would absolutely not bask unless her temperature was right where she wanted it. And to this day, she's the only dragon i've ever had that was absolutely that picky about it.

Now, if Naughtica was my only dragon that I ever owned, and I did not have this site, it would be reasonable for me to believe that 96 degrees is the proper temperature for an adult dragon. And it would be reasonable for me to go around spreading that advice. But therein lies the issue with personal experience. Sometimes your personal experience is unique, and is not relatable to the masses. It took me awhile to realize this too, which is why I try to be a bit more "loose" with my suggestions and advice on some things than others here.

But, I digress.

-Brandon

 

[Sue E.]

That makes more sense

To be honest, I shudder when I hear people recommending a basking surface temp of 95 degrees. Even 95-100 is low in my opinion.

From my understanding, 95 degrees is the minimum temperature required to even facilitate proper digestion. It makes sense, space allowing, to aim for a basking surface around 105, or slightly higher for non-adults. The dragon can pick if it wants to bask right at the 105 spot, or if it wants to be an inch to the side where it's a little cooler. If you are only offering such a low temperature, the dragon has no choice but to pick that spot.

Couple caveats with that though -

As with anything, advice is just general guidelines. We can't possibly have individual tailored advice for each dragon in each situation, which is why given advice needs to cover the majority of cases. Some dragons, especially older ones, tend to like slightly cooler temperatures.

One of my old girls, Naughtica, was notorious for refusing to bask unless her temperature was at what she specifically liked. She would not bask at 105. She would not bask at 100. She would not bask at 98. She would only bask if her basking surface temp was exactly at 96. And boy was she a pain at times lol.

But, that is part of being a pet owner. In the beginning you start off with the general advice; you learn and you grow. As you gain more experience, and learn the subtle idiosyncrasies of your dragon, you learn what it likes, and what it doesn't like. After years, I learned some very specific and odd quarks with Naughtica, one of which being that she would absolutely not bask unless her temperature was right where she wanted it. And to this day, she's the only dragon i've ever had that was absolutely that picky about it.

Now, if Naughtica was my only dragon that I ever owned, and I did not have this site, it would be reasonable for me to believe that 96 degrees is the proper temperature for an adult dragon. And it would be reasonable for me to go around spreading that advice. But therein lies the issue with personal experience. Sometimes your personal experience is unique, and is not relatable to the masses. It took me awhile to realize this too, which is why I try to be a bit more "loose" with my suggestions and advice on some things than others here.

But, I digress.

-Brandon

I get it. Its like nursing (40 yr nurse). Best practices and standards of care are ALWAYS evolving, and each patient is a particular individual whose needs and idiosyncrasies must be taken into account. In life, we all continually have things to learn, and when you stop learning and stop growing, you stagnate. I try not to pass on anything that isnt hard and fast, esp in reptile care which I probably know next to nothing about beyond basics. That said, I would like to learn enough to reach that level of comfort with beardies that I had in my job...patient does x, I do y, which is correct in 85% of cases in SOME areas of practice. Like you dont have to stop and think doing CPR..where do I place my hands, rate of compressions etc. It just happens. And when things go bad, we all get together after the fact and analyze what went wrong and what we could do better next time. But at the end of the day, when the people whom you've learned from go their way, and its just you, well, you are faced with a living person/being who depends on you to do your best for them. So you need to learn as much as possible to do so well, and keep on learning and growing until you die.
(Like my daughter says, nurses should not have pets lol)

 

[ChileanTaco]

I watched a few of his videos and learned a lot! His feeding recs are spot on with what @Claudiusx says. Apparently the ideal weight for a male bearded dragon in the wild is 372 grams, for a female less than that. He says we should aim for no more than 10% over that in captivity. Variety in feeding is key. Portion sizes. He recommends bugs 2x week and veggies 3x-4x week, with a day or so of fasting for optimal health!

I do the same - and I'm puzzled how little that animal eats, compared to other animals -, with exactly 2x per week bugs (and not much), 1 to even 2 times a week fasting (normally he won't eat for 1 - 2 days per week on his own even if bugs are served), extra veggies most days, golliwog available always.

His weight is 560 g. He isn't chubby, and I bet I myself don't lean towards "a bit chubby is still lean" (also not with myself, so for sure also not with pets where I'm, on the other hand, always worry when somebody presents their overweight pet as "cute").
A thought: Is it maybe the case that the wild bearded dragons are smaller, as in: shorter, and maybe also narrower in bone structure*? Similar to e.g. like in some birds e.g. budgerigar where the wild form is just significantly smaller than the domesticated form even in those showing the "wild" colors?

*I'm aware that an overweight individual, being it pet or human, is normally not heavier just as the shoulder bones are wider apart, rib cage is larger, hip bones wider - even as some people claim for themselves
On the other hand, however, if that's indeed the case for some individuals and already the internal dimensions are different (like in the budgerigar case: they are larger, also their bones, beak, all that), more tissue would be needed to go around that, i.e.: heavier despite lean.

From my understanding, 95 degrees is the minimum temperature required to even facilitate proper digestion. It makes sense, space allowing, to aim for a basking surface around 105, or slightly higher for non-adults. The dragon can pick if it wants to bask right at the 105 spot, or if it wants to be an inch to the side where it's a little cooler. If you are only offering such a low temperature, the dragon has no choice but to pick that spot.

I agree on this.
In the beginning I was slightly worried about having the enclosure in front of two windows, and I thought as nice as it looks, maybe I will have to use the curtains once in a while to not overheat.
The reality is: My dragon enjoys sitting under the lamps even when it's really hot outside and it heats up through the glass even more. When he's done basking, he goes away. (This is, in my opinion, also the reason why a large enclosure should be offered - for the temperature zones. A dragon sitting at the same spot for hours - mine does - and not acting "sportive" is IMHO no reason for a small enclosure.)
I remember days when (sadly I don't have measured the temperature for comparison) where he was happily basking, and I had planned doing some work in the enclosure (stuff that goes over the basic "feeding, cleaning" like repotting plants) and I just couldn't bear it having my head in that hot enclosure.

 

[xp29]

Sorry to hear that Kai bit you, did you give him a stern lecture about biting mommy ? A time out is in order too. No bugs for an entire day --- oh wait, that's already his regimen.

I've watched the entire 3 + hour video by beardie vet, lots of very good info for sure. I do disagree on a few things he recommends including the proposed weight of beardies being a bit too low . I also disagree with the feeding amounts of hatchlings and of babies . Other than that I agree with most of his recommendations.

I thought I remembered you linking that video as I was reading @Sue E. post