how to feed thick liquid suppliments to SMALL LIZARD ?

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kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Not a beardie , but Wriggles (my old female water skink again).

What's been happening and new problem (very applicable to those who might have a sick bearded dragon hatching to treat , give oral food suppliments too , so I have posted here - someone might need to know how do this with a tiny sick hatchling.

Update on how she's been going -

Being going well UNTIL THiS WEEK.

Changes I made : I stopped giving her softened pellets (mix of repcal juvenile beardie pellets and vetafarm lizard pellets) on adivice of a very experienced skink and dragon breeder, and backed off on the higher quality insect protein (medium crickets) recently after she passed a "stone",and upped the more fatty insect protein, offered her small silkworms = no interest (too big (20mm , now have some even smaller silkworms arrived today (5 - 15mm long and will try offering a 10mm silkworm to her tomorrow) first lizard I heard of refusing silkworms !!

She has gained a tiny bit of weight since her diet was changed , not enough to see though. No more big "stones" but some smaller ones (that she passed OK with only a little help if I saw she wanted to go, no more straining though to do a deposit.

What has happened , got me worried -.

This week she started refusing food , even her favs of mealworms lavae and pupae for the last 3- 4 days (I am in the habit of handfeeding her insects to her once per day) , I think she may be sick , but she also quite old , older than 5 years I think , and might be slowing down with age .
She hasn't shed for a long while .... but usually she's OK with her eating in the lead up to a shed.

Sometimes in the last few days she has worried me because she has been breathing hard with an open mouth and even sneezing occasionally (usually while worm goo on her snout/nose (I try not to cover her nostrils but she is a wriggler, other (mostly) times she seems to breath normally (if it was an RI she'd be having trouble all the time ????).

More recent changes / steps I taken :
I've bumped up her heatpad temp to 36-37oC in the hope it will help her.
I've replaced all her bedding with fresh clean scot-towels and F10ed her 10L tub and all her stuff JIC. (the mixture of sand+peat coir and Kritters' Crumble is gone for now - incase it's been dust casing these issues.
I've also replaced her UVB150 globe with a new one , old one was 12 months old but her UV schedule has been 1 hr per day for long time (based on my observations of wild water skinks in my garden who only bask for short periods).
I've also this week started adding a small amount of CalciVet solution to her drinking water since the worms are so low in calcium (as per their dosing guide).

Have some HerpaBoost and some CrittaCare . both seem very thick , I just can't get the 5ml syringe with a blunt 18G medical drawing up needle to suck it up.
I have a medical grade disposable syringe with a 18G 1.5TW (1.2 x38mm) w/out bevel drawing up needle and I simply can't get the above to draw up into the syringe. I don't know the bore of these metal needles.
I have ordered some 18G, 16G and 14G feeding needles (see http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/crop_medication_needles_birds#.VqtvqLlun9p ) will these do the job ?

What do you guys use with you small sick hatchlings, skinks, geckos , etc who are only about 30g to give these food supplement slurries by mouth to them .... ? what size /bore tube / needle ?
I've ordered a 14G , 16G and 18G (large bore ?) cropping needles (for oral feeding of small birds) , are these suitable for the job of giving HerpaBoost and CrittaCare by syringe , has anyone a recommended cropping/feeding needle size for use with HerpaBoost and CrittaCare based on experience using these ? (I can always return the wrong sized needle to the supplier.)


How do get these little reptiles to open their mouths without hurting them to get the tube or feeding needle in ? When I giving antibiotics and calcivet to my other skink (a juvenile water skink who was only 8 g when I rescued him) - I used a catheter needle's plastic tube, but these were just watery liquids and not hard to draw up. This wont work this time (I've tried the same approach).

Should I just put the dose on her nose one drop at a time and hope she licks it off rather than rubbing her nose on my hand or shirtfront ?
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Original Poster
After 2 days when she seemed to hardly open her eyes, but did move about a bit to thermoregulate, and after my giving her big dose of UV (4 hr under the UVB150) , and adding calcivet solution to her drinking water (as per doseage instructions for this approach since I couldn't get her to take it one drop off her nose in concentrated form and I don't have a drawing up needle I feel safe with forcing into her mouth).

I made uo a concoction of softened repcal juvi beardie pellets & vetafarm lizard pellets + some small banana bits mixed with finely grated carrot and some very finely cut buk choi with a good dollop of manuka honey mixed in for tastyness and to get the antibacterial benefits and left that with her last night.

Checked this morning and no sign of any banana but impossible to tell if she's eaten any or much of the mixture.
She seemed a bit perkier today, she was more active today than she's been for a couple of days so maybe she did.
She even climbed into her water dish and had a bath and a splash while I was feeding Peppa and Toothless , was really bright eyed and alert while doing this - this is how I am used to seeing her, and then she had very big drink, I was wondering if she would ever stop drinking and wondering where she was putting it all !!

I think I managed to get a little mealworm "meat" into her tonight (took good timing, when she opened her mouth I had to be ready to get the bit of worm goo on my finger tip into her mouth) , she had some meat - I think - from 7 mealworms. I'd try silkworms but I think I need the special bird feeding needles to do this - maybe using a drawing up needle to impale the silkworm and suck the goodness out of it, the change needle to feeding needle and somehow get the end of it into her mouth.
I don't think she'll eat a whole small silkworm right now.

I am not sure if this is age related, or if she's sick, but I've zero confidence in my local reptile vets and will have to be desperate to take her to them.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Original Poster
I contacted VetaFarm (here in Australia) who make and distribute suppliments such as HerpaBoost and CrittaCare for reptiles and they have suggested a method , see extract from their email below

You may find it easier to mix the herpaboost with a little warm water – so measure the dose by sucking up with the syringe only ( no needle ).

You will then add a small amount of hot water and mix. The best medication needle to use will be either be a 14g or 16g needle.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Original Poster
Wriggles passed away at about lunchtime today in her warm little hide while I was feeding and attending to Peppa and Toothless .
Had her head out when I started, and turned around wound up with her tail poking out while I was busy with the babies, when I had finished with them, I went to get Wriggles out for her regular snuggle at lunchtime and discovered she was stiff and lifeless and her eyes were closed and a bit sunken :( .... very sad day for us.

She was a very special lizard (she smart, inquisitive, uber affectionate, super gentle , and full of personality and character) and I'm already missing her. I think she was about 6-7 years old.

Is going to be very hard to find another skink who will be as great a pet as she was.

She refused to eat anything last night so I gave in and let her have what she wanted , a big long snuggle on me before I returned her to her big tub. She was very weak last night while out on me, but had the strength to assert herself to get what she wanted off me. She wanted a lot comforting last night, and after a sleep woke up and very unsettled (wouldn't stay in one spot very long, would nap and then change places, and nap again, was like this when I went to bed).

The feeding needles will be set aside , as I wont need them now , they will become part of my "rescue" , lizard IC kit , should I ever need to force feed a sick / injured lizard in the future.
 
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