How many insects should I give?

[NickAVD]

I think many people know that the ratio of insects to greenery for small dragons should be 80 to 20 percent, for adults 20 to 80.
The right proportion can be achieved by limiting the number of insects so that the dragon is more interested in greenery. Violation of proportions and overfeeding with insects can lead to liver problems and excess weight.
Can you share your experience on how you calculate how many insects should be given per feeding?
Usually I try to stop at the moment when Foxy thinks a little before grabbing another bug. And I know that after that he could eat about 1/3 more.

 

[xp29]

I don't even doubt what he will goes for first, lol! DUBIAS!
But seriously, I have roughly drawn up a nutrition plan after brumation and will try to stick to it.

Roughly drawn up plan is good.
There's a saying "the truth don't care about your feelings"
Well in the beardie orbit the truth is "beardies don't care about our plans"
They have their own agenda
But seriously having a plan that leaves room to play it by ear is a good plan.

 

[ChileanTaco]

Just don't forget that at the end of the day we are talking about primal animals and nature. They are not robots in a lab and I don't think everything NEEDS to be that scientific all the time

Exactly. That's why I said "no reason for lab- or ICU-like".
We're normally talking about a healthy animal that should stay healthy. Also, that's an animal that has evolved in an environment with varying kinds and amounts of food.

Weight goes up, feed a little less often.
Weight goes down, feed a little more often.
->That's what I stick to, to ground myself because I'm paranoid and always want to optimate and overthink things

Also, and of course no "extremes".
Just like I do it for myself:
Knowing what is within a range of a reasonable amount of food for me, checking what mirror and scale tell, and if necessary adjust - but I don't worry about rare exceptions. I'm not going to use rulers for insects and head size, nor a scale for food portions.

If I, however, or my dragon, would have an illness where precise amounts of food and nutrients needs to be calculated, it would have to be differently. But otherwise: no.

There's a saying "the truth don't care about your feelings"

I use that very much.

But seriously having a plan that leaves room to play it by ear is a good plan.

I agree. Like how often approx. insects and how many - but I'm (also) not overthinking that. No "this worm is a bit smaller, should I count it as one or as 3/4 worm?"

 

[Chris.]

Man I can relate to that
I think that attitude can be a benefit in the beginning though. It drives us to learn everything we possibly can, so in the end (after we get out of our own way) we're better educated and better keepers.

Agreed.
Sometimes though, I swear, they look at me like "Dude, what's wrong with you. What are you doing with this kitchen scale again? Dude, you really weigh me before AND after I poop?! You need to f#@$ chill, Dude." (You know that look, I'm certain. Also they know my name, no idea why they call me "Dude")

I don't even doubt what he will goes for first, lol! DUBIAS!
But seriously, I have roughly drawn up a nutrition plan after brumation and will try to stick to it.

Foxy is going on a diet?! Poor guy and he doesn't even know it yet

 

[NickAVD]

Foxy is going on a diet?! Poor guy and he doesn't even know it yet

Diet is too strong a word.
But if he doesn't eat greens and vegetables, the days with cockroaches will be a little delayed.

 

[NickAVD]

Well in the beardie orbit the truth is "beardies don't care about our plans"
They have their own agenda

Yeah, I hope my plan will be fulfilled at least a little bit. And I wish that your plans about greenery and Sinatra will come true.

 

[NickAVD]

I'm not going to use rulers for insects and head size, nor a scale for food portions.

Of course, I agree that you don't need to measure insects with a ruler and scales.
I was interested in the METHOD for determining the portion of insects. And this answer cannot be measured in grams.

I am a programmer and, if you understand me, I needed an algorithm. What to do if you need to increase the amount of greens in the diet or lose weight a little. There were at least two ways to reduce the number of insects or increase the intervals between days with insects.
The first question is related to what is considered "a normal portion", in order to know the starting point that can be moved up or down.
That is why this interesting discussion turned out.
PS: To soften some of my thoughts about the calculations, I want to say that usually all this is successfully destroyed by Foxy. He brings a huge entropy to my plans and calculations. Therefore, in the end, everything turns out like everyone else - very approximately.

 

[ChileanTaco]

I was interested in the METHOD for determining the portion of insects. And this answer cannot be measured in grams.

I am a programmer and, if you understand me, I needed an algorithm.

I'm also, and I can totally this thinking. Often also "thumb rules" drive me nuts Like "a plate full": plates can have different sizes and you can pile to different heights... Or T-shirt sizes by age

I personally keep it not strictly 80:20 but agreed for myself to see this as an approx. rule. There are so many variables: Dragon has eaten less veggies one day - immediately reduce insects the next? (I don't do so.) Change diet on days he's more active vs. not? (No. I put it in, he selects.)
I try to keep it "over the long run" at what looks approximately 80:20. As also the 80:20 has not been exactly defined scientifically, so really hyper-precisely measures AFAIK, and so I don't have to worry whether I have to use the lab scale or whether I count by volume, weight and also calories if not doing extreme cases (like fluffing up small-leave greens or only offering food with a relatively high density like pumpkin or nutrition-poor like lettuce).
And for a "normal portion" I'm also not doing like "I feed a small specified-size bowl full each day precisely three times", but whatever he eats and his look stays within a normal range and is not totally off (which would be like: 1 bug a week, or 20 superworms a day). When Taco eats from live plants, I can't even specify how much it was (I would have to dig it up and weigh it, taking into account water in the soil... no ) - but I see he'd not eaten many bugs, he poops, plant gradually gets smaller, I see him eating that plant, so...

I'd be very very much the "algorithm type" also with that, but I've agreed for myself on that I don't have to keep it exact and the 80:20 is more to show what should be approximately fed to not end up with "all worms buffet" or on the other hand "eats like a rabbit". Same as for myself, which food should be more in the "often" or in the "rarely, sometimes" category without having to specify exactly whether once or twice a month from "rarely" is too often (daily for sure is). That's not like the salinity of a sea water aquarium where I have to know precisely what is the method on how to define and measure the proportions not go by "throw in a tea spoon full per bucket". There I have to be exact. Or medication.

What to do if you need to increase the amount of greens in the diet or lose weight a little.

I'd then feed less bugs, less of those veggies with higher calories than previously at least for a while.

 

[AHBD]

Yes, for those who will read this thread and use the advice that everyone has shared here, it is necessary to say once again that we are talking about adult dragons and how to prevent an excess of insects, as well as return them to their salads.
Is everything else correct?
You have a lot of experience in growing and raising dragons, there were probably those who were spoiled and did not want to eat salad. Did you do something similar?
I am afraid to look intrusive because I ask so many questions, so I apologize in advance.
And just a cool photo from Foxy (he is currently in brumation)
View attachment 93660

My babies hatched in my home ate greens almost as soon as they ate insects. As they ate an insect or two I would drop tiny shredded pieces of greens near them and since they were already excited from " the hunt ", they would pounce on the shredded green confetti falling around them. Sometimes if I was going to be away for most of the day I would put a large leaf from a not too tough/ stemmy green propped up on a veggie clip and they would even munch on that. The fave greens seemed to be turnip, mustard + kale.

 

[NickAVD]

I'd then feed less bugs, less of those veggies with higher calories than previously at least for a while.

I came up with a simple way to explain why I seriously wondered how much to change the normal portion in the direction of increase or decrease.
If you know how the PID controller works, then you must know that an incorrectly selected control action can destroy the system. i.e. if you increase or decrease the portion by the wrong value, you will not achieve the goal you set, but destroy the system, throwing it out of balance.
In general, all these thoughts are due to the fact that Foxy is brumating, and I have free time.

 

[AHBD]

Nick talking brain surgery to me

 

[ChileanTaco]

I came up with a simple way to explain why I seriously wondered how much to change the normal portion in the direction of increase or decrease.
If you know how the PID controller works, then you must know that an incorrectly selected control action can destroy the system. i.e. if you increase or decrease the portion by the wrong value, you will not achieve the goal you set, but destroy the system, throwing it out of balance.
In general, all these thoughts are due to the fact that Foxy is brumating, and I have free time.

Yes, I'm familiar with the PID controller. (And we're using this example often in teaching (for university students) )
I would however think that a living being is more flexible, and again, just don't do super extreme cases like the full-worm buffet or not a single insect anymore for weeks. (That for sure would throw it off.) Just like what might be the case in nature in a non-starvation case: sometimes there are more, sometimes there are less insects but plants should always be around.
I've, for example, started with throwing in a "no insects" day from time to time.
After some time, not increasing the amount (volume) of insects in his bowl proportionally to his own size/weight.
More often, when hand-feeding, stopping despite I know he might take another superworm or two. And as I haven't seen my dragon wolfing down whatever amount I feed (like many dogs would do for sure where you'd really have to control the portion size very much), I put in what he eats approximately a day to not make it look scarce but also not to throw away huge amounts (of veggies).

 

[xp29]

Agreed.
Sometimes though, I swear, they look at me like "Dude, what's wrong with you. What are you doing with this kitchen scale again? Dude, you really weigh me before AND after I poop?! You need to f#@$ chill, Dude." (You know that look, I'm certain. Also they know my name, no idea why they call me "Dude")


Foxy is going on a diet?! Poor guy and he doesn't even know it yet

Yup I do know that look

 

[NickAVD]

I've, for example, started with throwing in a "no insects" day from time to time.
After some time, not increasing the amount (volume) of insects in his bowl proportionally to his own size/weight.

Yes, that's exactly where I left off.

 

[LarryTheLizard]

Roughly drawn up plan is good.
There's a saying "the truth don't care about your feelings"
Well in the beardie orbit the truth is "beardies don't care about our plans"
They have their own agenda
But seriously having a plan that leaves room to play it by ear is a good plan.

Seriously though, they are their own boss! At least…let’s let them think that

 

[LarryTheLizard]

I came up with a simple way to explain why I seriously wondered how much to change the normal portion in the direction of increase or decrease.
If you know how the PID controller works, then you must know that an incorrectly selected control action can destroy the system. i.e. if you increase or decrease the portion by the wrong value, you will not achieve the goal you set, but destroy the system, throwing it out of balance.
In general, all these thoughts are due to the fact that Foxy is brumating, and I have free time.

Lol, it’s a bittersweet thing, having more time on your hands, but also missing Foxy!