How many insects should I give?

[NickAVD]

I think many people know that the ratio of insects to greenery for small dragons should be 80 to 20 percent, for adults 20 to 80.
The right proportion can be achieved by limiting the number of insects so that the dragon is more interested in greenery. Violation of proportions and overfeeding with insects can lead to liver problems and excess weight.
Can you share your experience on how you calculate how many insects should be given per feeding?
Usually I try to stop at the moment when Foxy thinks a little before grabbing another bug. And I know that after that he could eat about 1/3 more.

 

[NickAVD]

Uric acid is indeed a byproduct of metabolizing protein. It is better to feed less often but more bugs so the protein can be metabolized proper and the uric acid can be dealt with.
In the roaches it should not be an issue unless you feed them high protein stuff which (from my experience) is not really a must in any of their life stages. Mine get some oats and some pumpkin from time to time and the population explodes.

Also I'm not certain if for many small roaches compared to few big ones, the ratio of chitin/protein is not close to equal if not in favour of the adult ones. In any case, you would not feed roaches exclusively, you would mix it up with worms and locusts or crickets or snails. Personally I don't worry about chitin unless I would recognize any digestive issue.

The 3-4 bugs seems to be around the point where you describe Foxy not jumping for them anymore.

I have had a colony of Dubia for almost three years now and I periodically find individuals that have died of natural causes (old age). Sometimes their chitinous shell splits into pieces and it looks like seashells. The edges are so sharp that if you try to crush it with your fingers, you can cut yourself just like on a shell.
I am talking about females that have a beautiful glossy brown body. If I take a small individual in my hands, its shell is very soft. Considering this, we can conclude that adults have a higher chitin content. I cannot confirm this from a scientific point of view, because there is no way to do a chemical analysis, but I have read articles that say that the rigidity of the cockroach shell is achieved not by the presence of calcium, but by chitin. That is, the harder the shell, the more chitin it contains.
But I could have made a mistake in my reasoning somewhere, if you read the exact opposite about this, then correct me.

 

[NickAVD]

Dubia can be fed a variety of veggies so that can make up a good portion of their diet. Any commercial food that is plant/grain based with very low or no protein as well.

I completely agree with you, that's why I feed roaches only greens and vegetables. Sometimes I give them fruits, but it's rare.

 

[NickAVD]

If we return to my question and for summarize everything that was written above, I understood the following - there is no point in solving the problem of counting the number of roaches in one portion.
Instead, you should give a reasonable number of roaches (as @Chris. recommended, i.e. 3-4 insects the size of a dragon's head, or stop feeding if the dragon begins to think before grabbing the next insect)
If the dragon stops eating greens, then it is necessary to increase the intervals between days with insects, i.e. until it eats the greens, do not offer insects.
If I wrote something incorrectly, please correct me please.

 

[AHBD]

It's a little bit complicated because babies, juvies and adults need different portions. Those portions will vary depending on what type of insect it is. And a hatchling that is a week or two old needs very tiny insects, not the size of their head, smaller and more per feeding than the sub adult - adult dragons.

 

[Alice12]

Your approach sounds great. I usually recommend watching for that same "pause" moment in young dragons too. Whenever they hesitate or lose interest, it's a good sign they’ve had enough. For adults, I use a rough guideline of around 10-20 insects, 2-3 times per week, and otherwise focus on offering a variety of greens and veggies daily.

Bearded dragons have individual appetites, so your observation-based method is spot-on. Also, adjusting the feeding schedule to keep them excited about greens, as you've noted, is perfect for balancing their diet and avoiding liver or weight issues.

 

[NickAVD]

It's a little bit complicated because babies, juvies and adults need different portions. Those portions will vary depending on what type of insect it is. And a hatchling that is a week or two old needs very tiny insects, not the size of their head, smaller and more per feeding than the sub adult - adult dragons.

Yes, for those who will read this thread and use the advice that everyone has shared here, it is necessary to say once again that we are talking about adult dragons and how to prevent an excess of insects, as well as return them to their salads.
Is everything else correct?
You have a lot of experience in growing and raising dragons, there were probably those who were spoiled and did not want to eat salad. Did you do something similar?
I am afraid to look intrusive because I ask so many questions, so I apologize in advance.
And just a cool photo from Foxy (he is currently in brumation)

 

[NickAVD]

Your approach sounds great. I usually recommend watching for that same "pause" moment in young dragons too. Whenever they hesitate or lose interest, it's a good sign they’ve had enough. For adults, I use a rough guideline of around 10-20 insects, 2-3 times per week, and otherwise focus on offering a variety of greens and veggies daily.

Bearded dragons have individual appetites, so your observation-based method is spot-on. Also, adjusting the feeding schedule to keep them excited about greens, as you've noted, is perfect for balancing their diet and avoiding liver or weight issues.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Yes, I have already figured out how to choose a portion based on the number of insects. It was unclear to me why this reasonable portion led to the rejection of salads. Now I have a plan based on the answers I received on how to properly return salads to the daily diet.

 

[ChileanTaco]

Considering this, we can conclude that adults have a higher chitin content.

The chitin in the shell of larger ones is more, that is clear.
But the overall "meat vs. chitin" ratio: Volume vs. surface area aren't proportional, a smaller animal has more surface area than a larger one for its volume. The larger ones are harder, but the larger ones have a higher "meat" fraction.
So technically, we have to different graphs: size (volume, you could take length as a proxy) vs. chitin content per unit of shell, and size vs. surface area.

I completely agree with you, that's why I feed roaches only greens and vegetables. Sometimes I give them fruits, but it's rare.

Also, and I don't find that complicated: Just scraps from the kitchen (raw of course) - doesn't even cost me something extra as otherwise I would throw it away. Those little mouths get out e.g. the bits of pumpkin on what I would throw away after peeling a pumpkin.

 

[NickAVD]

The chitin in the shell of larger ones is more, that is clear.
But the overall "meat vs. chitin" ratio: Volume vs. surface area aren't proportional, a smaller animal has more surface area than a larger one for its volume. The larger ones are harder, but the larger ones have a higher "meat" fraction.
So technically, we have to different graphs: size (volume, you could take length as a proxy) vs. chitin content per unit of shell, and size vs. surface area.

I agree with what you are saying.
Adults will have more "meat", so you should calculate the proportion between the weight of the meat and the weight of the shell.
But I have not yet come up with a quick way to do this.
Why I decided off the top of my head that adult roaches have more chitin: if we assume that the percentage ratio of the thickness of the shell to the meat is the same (and perhaps this is not the case) in adults and young individuals, then we can only compare the rigidity of the shells.
The shell of an adult roach is very hard and quite fragile like a sea shell, while that of babies is soft and elastic.
Based on this, I concluded that the concentration of chitin is lower.
That is, if you take the shells of an adult and a small roach (without meat), then in the shell itself, the small individuals will have less chitin.
This is only my assumption, but not a statement.
What do you think about this?

 

[ChileanTaco]

Adults will have more "meat", so you should calculate the proportion between the weight of the meat and the weight of the shell.

For this, you would have to measure this. E.g., you would have to kill a few roaches and take measurements. You could do a theoretical model but would have to populate this using measurements.

What do you think about this?

I usually just feed medium-sized roaches. I do not think it is important to handle this as strict as if somebody including an animal would be on a very strict diet for medical reasons.
The same as the "space between the eyes" measurement: I do this approximately, but for sure not put a ruler on their head

The shell of an adult roach is very hard and quite fragile like a sea shell, while that of babies is soft and elastic.
Based on this, I concluded that the concentration of chitin is lower.

Of course this is the case. This is one function/ graph.
The other one is then the ratio meat vs. shell.
In the end, you would need to know how much chitin intake per unit of insect meat you get from a small, medium, adult... roach.

 

[NickAVD]

For this, you would have to measure this. E.g., you would have to kill a few roaches and take measurements. You could do a theoretical model but would have to populate this using measurements.

I feel sorry to kill them for experiments. They are my pets too. I guess I'll leave everything as is and continue feeding by medium-sized specimens.

 

[ChileanTaco]

I feel sorry to kill them for experiments. They are my pets too. I guess I'll leave everything as is and continue feeding by medium-sized specimens.

Absolutely. This is why I wrote "you would have to" and not "you will simply" or so

I would also not do that. I'm not killing animals, including of course insects, without a very good reason, and IMHO really calculating the meat-to-chitin ratio isn't important. I'm fine with feeding my dragon insects (serves a purpose, insects have a quite good life before that as I care well for them, and serves a purpose), but I'm not swatting flies, wasps or whatever, and I would not eat some as my food (I'm not disgusted, I just don't eat animals). For the same reason, I'd seen the above as purely theoretical and will not kill and take apart roaches or other insects.

I feed medium-sized roaches and that's it. I feed them reasonable (i.e.: I won't use high-protein, I do not use any commercial "roach food" which I also would doubt to be able to get here), and my dragon eats them, he's also eating veggies well. I see no reason for doing it "lab-like" or "ICU-like"

 

[Chris.]

It is a lot of fun geeking out about some things here and there and I really love this.

Just don't forget that at the end of the day we are talking about primal animals and nature. They are not robots in a lab and I don't think everything NEEDS to be that scientific all the time

Offer different types and sizes of food, look what he goes for first.
Weight goes up, feed a little less often.
Weight goes down, feed a little more often.
->That's what I stick to, to ground myself because I'm paranoid and always want to optimate and overthink things

 

[NickAVD]

Offer different types and sizes of food, look what he goes for first.

I don't even doubt what he will goes for first, lol! DUBIAS!
But seriously, I have roughly drawn up a nutrition plan after brumation and will try to stick to it.

 

[xp29]

It is a lot of fun geeking out about some things here and there and I really love this.

Just don't forget that at the end of the day we are talking about primal animals and nature. They are not robots in a lab and I don't think everything NEEDS to be that scientific all the time

Offer different types and sizes of food, look what he goes for first.
Weight goes up, feed a little less often.
Weight goes down, feed a little more often.
->That's what I stick to, to ground myself because I'm paranoid and always want to optimate and overthink things

Man I can relate to that
I think that attitude can be a benefit in the beginning though. It drives us to learn everything we possibly can, so in the end (after we get out of our own way) we're better educated and better keepers.