Health concern (Thaimin? MBD? Just the inevitable effects of Adeno?) Attn Traci/AB Dragon... please

[ILoveRJ]

RJ has had some odd before recently. I was browsing the site for liquid calcium as the behavior at first thought made me think was MBD. But I got to say I found it very unlikely that it would be MBD, as I've always given him the highest quality of care, based on information I've received from this website specifically. In fact he's been doing so well for so long, it's actually been quite some time since I've been on this site. Then I came across this article about Thaimin deficiency, while browsing for a quality source of liquid calcium.

However he's never had frozen vegetables or even fish. Yet the symptoms are spot on to what's been going on with him. I suppose it's important to add he's also Adenovirus positive.
Despite that he's done so well for so long and has just turned 5 years old.
There was a time about a year ago that he had taken a fall, which broke my heart to watch, and it almost seemed that from that time he's started showing these signs which I didn't know what to make of.
He often will curve his body completely, just to turn around, and struggles to hit bugs with his tounge. He has eaten A LOT of roaches throughout his life, and never really acquired an interest in greens, sadly. But I do still try from time to time. He's always had proper vitamin supplementation, even at times we doesn't eat much or attempts to brumate I will mix multivitamin and calcium and two baby food and feed him with a syringe.
I'm sure there will be more questions in order to get a better idea of what exactly is going on, but I figured I would just start with this information for now. I know how much you all do on this website so I understand if it takes a bit to respond, but I look forward to hearing back as he's the most important thing to me and I would love to be able to hear something about what could be done to improve his well-being. Actually that being said, I thought of one more thing to add, which is that it's not too strange for his appetite to be down currently as he it is that time of year, and his weight has also maintained reasonably as well. Lastly I'll add a picture of his enclosure so you can see. However as I said already he is always been well provided for based on guidelines I received from all of you on the say years ago.

 

[CooperDragon]

I suppose it's possible, but this is not something I hear of often (if at all). If you're providing a varied diet and supplementing the bugs with calcium and vitamins (and offering veges for him to eat if he wants them) I would think this is unlikely. The symptoms are more likely related to atadenovirus. A vet could probably test for thiamine deficiency via blood test, but it is probably not worth the cost or effort in this case because of the atadenovirus.

 

[ILoveRJ]

So your thoughts are adenovirus and nothing more? I did say he's tested positive for it correct?The curving of his whole "torso" to simply turn around seems strange to me mostly.

 

[CooperDragon]

Yes, you mentioned that he has atadenovirus which made me think that would be the most likely cause of the symptoms you described. It could be something else, but I think that would be less likely in comparison is all. Others may be able to weigh in adding from their experiences and knowledge which may be helpful.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Since Adeno affects a lot of various things in the body, a blood test might be a good idea to see if any of the values
are within range. Perhaps he has an enlarged liver, but that can't be ascertained really without a blood test. Adeno
affects the absorption of vitamins, etc which can affect the neuromuscular & motor skills, too.
Are you already giving a liquid calcium currently?
How far was the fall & did he fall onto a hard floor or a floor with carpeting?

Tracie

 

[ILoveRJ]

Yeah but I can't seem to find a damn vet that will do work without doing a general physical first

 

[ILoveRJ]

Also, I wanted to show you this video (Tracie). I've Been wanting to, but his doing it doesn't always line up with my trying to get it in video.
Seems it occurs mostly after he eats and drinks
(See link for video)

0 new items by Me

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[ILoveRJ]

If it's a respiratory thing, do you have meds for it on your website? There's not a vet near me that I trust. There's one I used to take him to but over the years from information I received from you and this forum, my trust in him has greatly been reduced.

 

[ILoveRJ]

Has anyone had a chance to look at this video? I know people are busy. So I thank you if you can

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I watched your video. I don't think he has a respiratory issue but it does appear that he may be having some type
of pain or distress.
I am not sure if I am seeing it correctly but does he have some swelling on his left hand/wrist area or is that just the
angle on the picture? His eyes appear a bit puffy which can indicate renal issues, liver issues or a possibly heart
problem. Since you mentioned that he has had a lot of roaches in his life, makes me ponder the possibility of him
developing gout. His kidneys may be bothering him & many times one of the first indicators of renal problems are
losing or decreased lower body/limb function. Also, with gout, they can also develop parathyroid problems or poor
absorption problems causing calcification of the spine or stiffness.
For now, I would reduce his protein, if you haven't already to try & primarily focus on vegetation. You could consider
starting him on a black or tart cherry juice extract to help with kidney function. I realize that he doesn't like greens,
etc so what you can do is simply make up a nice greens slurry for him to get into him a few times per week. Since
he is maintaining his weight, you could get away with keeping his protein intake to 25 or so weekly.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

 

[ILoveRJ]

Hello,

I watched your video. I don't think he has a respiratory issue but it does appear that he may be having some type
of pain or distress.
I am not sure if I am seeing it correctly but does he have some swelling on his left hand/wrist area or is that just the
angle on the picture? His eyes appear a bit puffy which can indicate renal issues, liver issues or a possibly heart
problem. Since you mentioned that he has had a lot of roaches in his life, makes me ponder the possibility of him
developing gout. His kidneys may be bothering him & many times one of the first indicators of renal problems are
losing or decreased lower body/limb function. Also, with gout, they can also develop parathyroid problems or poor
absorption problems causing calcification of the spine or stiffness.
For now, I would reduce his protein, if you haven't already to try & primarily focus on vegetation. You could consider
starting him on a black or tart cherry juice extract to help with kidney function. I realize that he doesn't like greens,
etc so what you can do is simply make up a nice greens slurry for him to get into him a few times per week. Since
he is maintaining his weight, you could get away with keeping his protein intake to 25 or so weekly.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

Tracie, thank you for your reply. Is there any sort of meds that could help? And what's a good quality source for black cherry extract?
I've done baby foods before, to get calcium powder and multi vitamins in him at times when he doesn't eat much. Any thoughts on what exactly to mix up in a slurry?

 

[ILoveRJ]

Tracie, thank you for your reply. Is there any sort of meds that could help? And what's a good quality source for black cherry extract?
I've done baby foods before, to get calcium powder and multi vitamins in him at times when he doesn't eat much. Any thoughts on what exactly to mix up in a slurry?

Tracie, did you happen to see my recent comment regarding your reply

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How are things going?
You can mix up chicken or turkey baby food, with squash or sweet potato baby food along with supplements, etc & greens.
You can get Knudson brand black or tart cherry juice which is usually in a big jar, but there are other brands that you should
be able to find at most health food stores that are fine too. Just be sure there isn't any added sugar.
Is he showing any improvement right now, or is there still some puffiness or swelling?
If he has gout, you can look into starting him on Allopurinol for gout & or gout conditions to see if that will help out.

Tracie

 

[ILoveRJ]

Thank you Traci. There's currently no swelling. It must have been a bad photo. I finally found a vet that claims to actually be board certified in bearded dragons.
Can't recall if I told you that the main reason I began to doubt the guy I went to early on, (before I leaned a lot more from you and all the great folks on this site) but I stopped going because I felt he wasn't as knowledgeable as he first seemed. He would offer a typical ointment for an internal parasite! (This was a place called "We're Animal Hospital) The new place I found, where I just scheduled an appointment for RJ (REX JUNIOR) at, is called Bulger Vetinary Clinic!
So I will soon get him the full run down. Physical, X-ray, blood work, etc...
I simply haven't been able to as it seems senseless to do such things at place where for something as simple as parasites is not treated properly.
I will pick up some of what you suggested until his appointment comes around.
There's NOTHING I wouldn't do for him. He is 5 years old and I love him so much. He's ADV POSITIVE, been parasite free for 4 years! He's my third dragon. REX and copper only made out until 2 yrs old before ADV got the best of them. So sad. But RJ has prevailed over it all, so I will do everything I can to ensure he can continue to beat this awful virus!!!

 

[ILoveRJ]

Traci, in regards to baby food, I can't find any chicken or turkey baby food that doesn't have broth/gravy or other additives.
Also, regarding the squash, I've always given him summer squash, one of the few veggies he'll eat willingly, but for baby food I find only butternut squash, no summer squash. Is this acceptable?
Lastly, regarding the cherry juice, what should the ratio be? Like if I mix up a bunch of greens and baby food, how much juice do I add to it?
When I've done baby food with calcium and multi in the past, it usually just sprinkle a bit of each in the baby food, an amount that he'd likely get in a feeding of dusting bugs. So I guess I'm not entirely sure how much of the calcium and multivitamin should be mixed in either.
Sorry Tracy one more thing I wanted to ask, what would the dosing be for the Allopurinol?
And where were the best place to be to get it?
I see they have some on chewy.com but not sure if you knew a place with a higher quality brand. Thank you