JalebKackson
Member
tl;dr growing beardy has gout, started pureeing egg-whites and syringe feeding as a purine-free protein source. haven't noticed swelling, and beardy is more active. what do you think? any facts you can share on the matter?
[The following bit is basically a rundown of what led me to writing this Post]
my beardy (her name is Evel, cause she's a little daredevil) got gout before she was even a year old, (blood tests, and prescribed allopurinol, syringe fed) according to the vet my husbandry was well above par and the vet believes she was genetically predisposed to the condition, a conclusion she came to after considering my attention to detail in my husbandry. I got her from Petco
-(got gout while eating dubias)
she acquired the gout while on a staple-feeder diet of dubia roaches from 'dubia roaches . com' who appear to be very conscientious about quality. I periodically dusted the roaches with Reptivite
I'm suspicious that the last batch of roaches I got developed their own high uric acid concentration? I don't think is the sole cause of the gout, just part of the sum. not blaming the company, I'd buy 1000 at a time so it easily could have been my own lack of understanding how to take care of dubias over the 3 weeks it would take her to eat them.
-(live feeders always cause gout attacks)
I cannot feed her quantities of live feeders that would sustain growth without her limbs swelling up to a point where she can't walk, or will avoid it at all costs. Regardless of medication. (Black cherry concentrate, Celery Seed extract, Allopurinol, and some experiments with low concentration Vinegar-Water baths/soaked cloths around her problem joints)
-(lazy drinker, super picky eater)
she rarely drinks on her own, most of the time I have to syringe feed her water. She is the pickiest eater of all time, if it's not moving she wont eat it. I'll feed her only veggies and she'll wait days to start eating them, at which point they've become cracker-dry and she'll eat a bite or two just to sustain herself. (starting to think she might like it more dry, because it crunches like insects). Her disinterest in drinking on her own I think might be another cause of gout.
All of this is very difficult to manage around both full-time school & work. Anywho I've reached my wits end looking through forums, and reading what little credible research has been done on this topic. We're giving reptiles with gout literally the same medication we give to humans.. mammals. There's so little known that vets have to just go with something they know works for us. Seems like a temporary solution.
[Relating this all to the thread Title]
From what I've found, the metabolization of proteins containing purines produce uric acid, and when the bodies filtration mechanisms can't eliminate it, the concentration builds, and the crystals collect in the joints leading to painful swelling, permanent joint damage/disfiguration etc..
eggs have next to no purines, making them the lowest purine protein source I've found. This also seems like a pretty complete-protein, compared to something like gelatin. The whites contain little to no fat whatsoever, making them purine-free, fat-free animal protein.
I've spent a lot of time looking for some real fact-based data proving that bearded dragons cannot eat egg whites. I'm trying to look at egg-eating reptiles native to Australia and their evolutionary relation to each other and to Vitticeps to see why egg whites might be harmful.
however knowing that other people feed scrambled eggs to their beardies occasionally (with yolks) I figured id see what might happen if I pair egg whites with a veggie diet.
first I needed to make sure I gave her the right amount of protein.
She would eat about 1000 1/2inch dubias in about 3 weeks, dubias of that size are about 20% protein, after contacting dubia roaches, and reading some online studies, it looks like the weight of 1000 1/2inch is about 150-200 grams. (150 x .2 = 30g) of protein. (200 x .2 = 40g). 1000 dubias contains roughly 30-40grams of protein. over the course of 3 weeks (21 days) 30/21 and 40/21 is about 1.43g-1.9g grams of protein a day.
this is the amount she ate when she got gout, so probably safer to undershoot a little toward 1g than toward 2g
a whole egg contains about 6g of protein per 50g large egg, not gonna go into the math here, you get the point.
I determined an amount of egg that would achieve 1.43-1.9g of protein and hard boiled some eggs, peeled off the whites (left a little bit of yolk in the first 2 times) and pureed it and syringe fed some to Evel. She seemed to really enjoy it, she started tongue lunging at the syringe when i pulled it away the first few times, lmao "Hey!! I wasn't done!" (remember i do syringe because if its not moving she wont eat it.)
(She does respond to veggies that have distinct color variations, especially greens and reds. this gives me the idea to put some colored nontoxic stickers on a plate and see which color she tongues at the most to figure out what veggie she'll be most motivated to eat on her own)
I've been relying on veggies mainly (a lot of syringe feeding :roll: ) until I can come up with more info on this and a more sustainable/repeatable method. mainly Zucchini, she attacks that stuff. I think the color is appealing and texture feels nice to chomp on.
[What I've noticed from feeding eggs]
Ive been trying at different things for months so at this point she's been diagnosed for the last 6 months. She's been sluggish, often struggles to climb and walk, if it was shortly after eating insects, climbing was out of the question. has noticeable permanent joint swelling/damage/disfiguration in her hind 'toes' and hind 'ankles'.
I've drastically restricted her protein intake since, and she's remained about the same weight since diagnosis (230g), so this was the most protein she's received within the same day in months. and there was no swelling.
No swelling! not only did she get her protein she was able to run amuck with the energy afterword. She's actually climbing again. which tells me, at the very least, she's experiencing less pain. nothing too crazy, but she can climb the backrest of my sofa, whereas before she could only get half way.
I've also seen her start to run/sprint in short bursts. she's standing upright more often, and is definitely more active.
She ran over to the mirror the other day and bobbed her head at the reflection and puffed up. I haven't seen her express any strong behaviors in months, especially head bobbing. I'd take head bobbing as a good sign. if she's up to a fight, she's feeling more capable?
This is not a gout cure, I do not recommend repeating what I'm doing, I'm no expert
I just want to know what you guys think of this as a method of maintaining her growth while bypassing the effects of gout.
Does anyone have any fact based data you could give me on egg whites and bearded dragons.
Anything I should look out for?
Should I proceed with caution?
[The following bit is basically a rundown of what led me to writing this Post]
my beardy (her name is Evel, cause she's a little daredevil) got gout before she was even a year old, (blood tests, and prescribed allopurinol, syringe fed) according to the vet my husbandry was well above par and the vet believes she was genetically predisposed to the condition, a conclusion she came to after considering my attention to detail in my husbandry. I got her from Petco
-(got gout while eating dubias)
she acquired the gout while on a staple-feeder diet of dubia roaches from 'dubia roaches . com' who appear to be very conscientious about quality. I periodically dusted the roaches with Reptivite
I'm suspicious that the last batch of roaches I got developed their own high uric acid concentration? I don't think is the sole cause of the gout, just part of the sum. not blaming the company, I'd buy 1000 at a time so it easily could have been my own lack of understanding how to take care of dubias over the 3 weeks it would take her to eat them.
-(live feeders always cause gout attacks)
I cannot feed her quantities of live feeders that would sustain growth without her limbs swelling up to a point where she can't walk, or will avoid it at all costs. Regardless of medication. (Black cherry concentrate, Celery Seed extract, Allopurinol, and some experiments with low concentration Vinegar-Water baths/soaked cloths around her problem joints)
-(lazy drinker, super picky eater)
she rarely drinks on her own, most of the time I have to syringe feed her water. She is the pickiest eater of all time, if it's not moving she wont eat it. I'll feed her only veggies and she'll wait days to start eating them, at which point they've become cracker-dry and she'll eat a bite or two just to sustain herself. (starting to think she might like it more dry, because it crunches like insects). Her disinterest in drinking on her own I think might be another cause of gout.
All of this is very difficult to manage around both full-time school & work. Anywho I've reached my wits end looking through forums, and reading what little credible research has been done on this topic. We're giving reptiles with gout literally the same medication we give to humans.. mammals. There's so little known that vets have to just go with something they know works for us. Seems like a temporary solution.
[Relating this all to the thread Title]
From what I've found, the metabolization of proteins containing purines produce uric acid, and when the bodies filtration mechanisms can't eliminate it, the concentration builds, and the crystals collect in the joints leading to painful swelling, permanent joint damage/disfiguration etc..
eggs have next to no purines, making them the lowest purine protein source I've found. This also seems like a pretty complete-protein, compared to something like gelatin. The whites contain little to no fat whatsoever, making them purine-free, fat-free animal protein.
I've spent a lot of time looking for some real fact-based data proving that bearded dragons cannot eat egg whites. I'm trying to look at egg-eating reptiles native to Australia and their evolutionary relation to each other and to Vitticeps to see why egg whites might be harmful.
however knowing that other people feed scrambled eggs to their beardies occasionally (with yolks) I figured id see what might happen if I pair egg whites with a veggie diet.
first I needed to make sure I gave her the right amount of protein.
She would eat about 1000 1/2inch dubias in about 3 weeks, dubias of that size are about 20% protein, after contacting dubia roaches, and reading some online studies, it looks like the weight of 1000 1/2inch is about 150-200 grams. (150 x .2 = 30g) of protein. (200 x .2 = 40g). 1000 dubias contains roughly 30-40grams of protein. over the course of 3 weeks (21 days) 30/21 and 40/21 is about 1.43g-1.9g grams of protein a day.
this is the amount she ate when she got gout, so probably safer to undershoot a little toward 1g than toward 2g
a whole egg contains about 6g of protein per 50g large egg, not gonna go into the math here, you get the point.
I determined an amount of egg that would achieve 1.43-1.9g of protein and hard boiled some eggs, peeled off the whites (left a little bit of yolk in the first 2 times) and pureed it and syringe fed some to Evel. She seemed to really enjoy it, she started tongue lunging at the syringe when i pulled it away the first few times, lmao "Hey!! I wasn't done!" (remember i do syringe because if its not moving she wont eat it.)
(She does respond to veggies that have distinct color variations, especially greens and reds. this gives me the idea to put some colored nontoxic stickers on a plate and see which color she tongues at the most to figure out what veggie she'll be most motivated to eat on her own)
I've been relying on veggies mainly (a lot of syringe feeding :roll: ) until I can come up with more info on this and a more sustainable/repeatable method. mainly Zucchini, she attacks that stuff. I think the color is appealing and texture feels nice to chomp on.
[What I've noticed from feeding eggs]
Ive been trying at different things for months so at this point she's been diagnosed for the last 6 months. She's been sluggish, often struggles to climb and walk, if it was shortly after eating insects, climbing was out of the question. has noticeable permanent joint swelling/damage/disfiguration in her hind 'toes' and hind 'ankles'.
I've drastically restricted her protein intake since, and she's remained about the same weight since diagnosis (230g), so this was the most protein she's received within the same day in months. and there was no swelling.
No swelling! not only did she get her protein she was able to run amuck with the energy afterword. She's actually climbing again. which tells me, at the very least, she's experiencing less pain. nothing too crazy, but she can climb the backrest of my sofa, whereas before she could only get half way.
I've also seen her start to run/sprint in short bursts. she's standing upright more often, and is definitely more active.
She ran over to the mirror the other day and bobbed her head at the reflection and puffed up. I haven't seen her express any strong behaviors in months, especially head bobbing. I'd take head bobbing as a good sign. if she's up to a fight, she's feeling more capable?
This is not a gout cure, I do not recommend repeating what I'm doing, I'm no expert
I just want to know what you guys think of this as a method of maintaining her growth while bypassing the effects of gout.
Does anyone have any fact based data you could give me on egg whites and bearded dragons.
Anything I should look out for?
Should I proceed with caution?
