Eggbound. Vet wants to operate. Thoughts on Ultrasound?

[joncelona]

Hello all, Hoping to get some experienced input on this as to me it seems like there could be a non-invasive solution unless that egg is literally too big to pass without surgery.

Miss Owl, 9 years old almost. Both her parents lived to 14+. She's a strong, middle-aged dragon.

2 weeks ago i noticed a hard thing in her left side stomach. Waited 7 days before phoning the vet to see if it was impaction that needed to pass with babyfood, olive oil and warm baths. It did reduce but still a large hard egg in there. She has never laid eggs. Always been kept away from males.

After an ultrasound and xray today the vet wants to remove both ovaries asap. Which to me seems drastic..

He did both sides of her belly. The 3 ultrasound recordings are here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-3Vxz-bu3FkE-08TJAAv4eUErP_WUeM6&usp=drive_fs

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-2DBc771NBY0cl6DUjMSOneS8337GuWZ&usp=drive_fs

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-4MnC-1ZLxoh1enCQyMk7VhmKarWY5Rf&usp=drive_fs

@AHBD @Drache613
Do you have any experience dealing with, or know a way that could pass that large egg out?

We are in Spain.

Thanks for your time. Let me know what you think. Want to make the best choice for her.

Very sad at the possibility of her not being able to make some kids. The positive is that she has some sisters, albeit they are all totally different looking. Owl is a special one.

Thanks
J

 

[AHBD]

Let's see what Drache316 has to say but I'll offer some thoughts. I can't really make out what I'm seeing, especially not in comparison to the Miss Owl's entire body.
I have seen many xrays that show egg position so that's what I'm used to, and there are usually numerous eggs, never just 1 big one. Never heard of a beardie having 1 big egg in my 30 + years of owning them but that isn't a clinical observation.
Does she seem lethargic or having problems that seem like she's being affected by this " large egg " if it is there ? Beardies have certain behaviors, especially digging, looking for a laying spot for the eggs, before they have signs of trouble. So she is normsal + healthy in your opinion ?

 

[joncelona]

She is normal, eats plenty, drinks, swims in the bath, relaxes with me like always.

She has not been digging, scratching around, which i find weird.

She had her first contact with a male outside her family in January for a short period unsupervised by accident. No idea if they mated unfortunately, i think no, the male is only a year old and small. My minimal understanding is that being close to a male will activate the females egg making even though they likely didn't do anything?

Added a mound of coco substrate to her tank just to see if she would dig into it. But no, she just sits.

The big egg is inside the Ovary i believe, and it did not release when it should have. and it's grown to somewhere around 2cm in what we could see in the Ultrasound and is still attached to the ovary. This was all explained in Spanish so I may need correcting there

I have had dragons for 19yrs, she seems normal. But they do hide suffering well.. The area it is doesn't appear to be sensitive or anything.

Looking from above - it is located half way down the left side of her body. It is about the size of an egg

Their dad had a tumour not long ago so i've been keeping an eye on them all so not to get surprises like that too late again.

Thanks for your message.
J

 

[AHBD]

You're welcome. So if she's not acting distressed then it is not affecting her and she may be going to lay in the near future. If we had an xray, Drache + I could probably see more clearly what's going on. Beardies do become quite ill when eggbound, they go black beard, very lethargic, etc.
It's up to you to decide but I myself would wait. Does she have other eggs ? Since you mentioned her dad having a tumor though, that would be on my radar. BTW, beardie eggs are pretty large when laid, 2 cm is not a really large egg. They're a little smaller than this when laid, about 2/3 of the hatch size.

 

[joncelona]

I've emailed the vet to ask for the xray. I saw it, he explained it, it was a solid white dense area. not that that description helps anyone at all. BD reproduction is not something i know much detail about, outside of setting the scene and incubating.

I cant feel any other eggs in her. just this lonely one

 

[AHBD]

O.K, post the xray and we'll also see what Tracie [ Drache] has to say. I'll be gone now for a few hours to cut grass. Lots of rain + then hot weather keeps the grass growing like crazy !

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

It is very hard to determine from this ultrasound. I can look in my medical books with some other
ultrasounds of bearded dragons or other smaller reptiles, to see if I can find similiar comparisons.
An x-ray would probably be much easier to see what could be going on.
It does sound a bit strange, since she has never laid any eggs prior to this diagnosis. It does sound
odd that she hasn't exhibited any egg laying behavior & she isn't in distress or blackbearding, etc.
I suppose it's possible that she could have an egg mass that is calcified but I have personally not
heard of that before. As AHBD stated, I would be watching for a tumor, if her dad had some trouble
with one.
Is her weight stable currently? It sounds like she is doing well right now. I would probably wait a bit
on surgery just to be sure exactly what is going on.

Tracie

 

[joncelona]

Thanks Tracie. You were the first person i thought of when presented with this situation.

Heres her Xray:

vd0000.bmp

drive.google.com

345g after food. She weighed 325g about 6months ago. Weight increasing normally with her age/growth to me.

Zero stress i can detect. Her beard is vibrant orange like normal. Shedding properly. Eating loads, gave her plenty repashy gel this morning with some salad. Active. She sits up most of the day.

Thinking logically, if this is a "body malfunction", she's probably calcium deficient.. what do you think? Got a new pack of powder today and sprayed 0.5ml of liquid calcium in her mouth with some water last night.

Had her sleeping on a warm heatmat all last night. Tonight leaving her alone in her warm viv.

Surgery cancelled until there is clarity. The vet was a new guy also and he was far too enthusiastic about operating for my liking. Something seems strange. And your comments indicate that may be the case. It doesn't sit right with me that i went in because I felt something in her stomach, not because she's sick or acting weird. All way too fast, and suspicious. Owl definitely isn't getting cut open unless it has to be done to preserve her life.

Thanks very much for your time. Let me know what you think

John

 

[Drache613]

Hello John,

The x-ray isn't super clear but it appears to be multiple eggs formed. This is strange that she has never
developed eggs before.
Giving the extra calcium definitely wont hurt her at all. So, at the moment, she isn't stressed, black
bearding, etc at all? I think I would wait also, to see if she starts to gain weight or start to show any
egg laying type of behavior.
If she is eating a lot, alert, & not acting ill right now, I would hold off for just a little while.

Tracie