Dig Her up for Vet Visit? Or Wait and See?

[jclee]

I have a dragon that I adopted in July of 2022. She was about 10 months old at that time. She came to me with pinworms, which I treated. They were stubborn, and by winter of 23 (January 2023, maybe?) her vet and I decided her load was low enough that it was not cause for concern and we should monitor it.

Since then:

• I never followed up for a fecal.
• Her vet left that practice. (However, I have a new ARAV listed vet who's only ever seen my guinea pigs. She's never seen my dragon, so I do not think she can give any guidance by phone. I would have to bring her in, first, to get any guidance.)
• The dragon showed no symptoms of an increased parasite load. Behavior, apetite, and poop all seemed normal.
• She never brumated over the winter of 2022-2023 or 2023-2024.

She seems to be brumating now.

I dug her up a few times (every few days) to see if I could get her basking, stall brumation, and get her to the vet. I know that animals with parasites have a higher risk from brumation, so I'm worried. (The parasite load was low and showed no signs of having increased, so I am hopeful... but I am worried.) She went right back under each time I dug her up. The last time, she black bearded a little, so I've left her be since 9/17. Also, she did not seem to eat her last few meals before this all started, but I cannot be positive that she didn't eat a little bit. I was offering food because I did not think she would brumate, as she'd not tried to brumate in her previous 2 winters with me.

So: Do I get her up and get her to the vet? I'm worried this will stress her. I am also worried about how I would possibly even get a fecal sample if she keeps just trying to go back into brumation (without eating/pooping). Or do I let it be, hope the pinworm load was very low and I'm worrying too much? Or is there a third option that I'm not considering?

What would you do?


P.S. In an ideal world, I would have gotten another fecal to a new vet long before now. I know that I've made a mistake. She looked fine, and I did not think she would brumate (since she hadn't before); also, between her last fecal and now, I've had a series of pet emergencies and a parental death. She looked and acted fine, so her vet visit just kept getting put off. Life gets in the way, and I really regret putting it off, now. Please know that.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there ! No, don't force her out . That can do far more damage than good. There's a lot of misunderstanding about brumation and it IS a stressful time for owners , especially if they've never gone through it before.
If she is healthy weight then you have nothing really to worry about.

 

[xp29]

I have a dragon that I adopted in July of 2022. She was about 10 months old at that time. She came to me with pinworms, which I treated. They were stubborn, and by winter of 23 (January 2023, maybe?) her vet and I decided her load was low enough that it was not cause for concern and we should monitor it.

Since then:

• I never followed up for a fecal.
• Her vet left that practice. (However, I have a new ARAV listed vet who's only ever seen my guinea pigs. She's never seen my dragon, so I do not think she can give any guidance by phone. I would have to bring her in, first, to get any guidance.)
• The dragon showed no symptoms of an increased parasite load. Behavior, apetite, and poop all seemed normal.
• She never brumated over the winter of 2022-2023 or 2023-2024.

She seems to be brumating now.

I dug her up a few times (every few days) to see if I could get her basking, stall brumation, and get her to the vet. I know that animals with parasites have a higher risk from brumation, so I'm worried. (The parasite load was low and showed no signs of having increased, so I am hopeful... but I am worried.) She went right back under each time I dug her up. The last time, she black bearded a little, so I've left her be since 9/17. Also, she did not seem to eat her last few meals before this all started, but I cannot be positive that she didn't eat a little bit. I was offering food because I did not think she would brumate, as she'd not tried to brumate in her previous 2 winters with me.

So: Do I get her up and get her to the vet? I'm worried this will stress her. I am also worried about how I would possibly even get a fecal sample if she keeps just trying to go back into brumation (without eating/pooping). Or do I let it be, hope the pinworm load was very low and I'm worrying too much? Or is there a third option that I'm not considering?

What would you do?


P.S. In an ideal world, I would have gotten another fecal to a new vet long before now. I know that I've made a mistake. She looked fine, and I did not think she would brumate (since she hadn't before); also, between her last fecal and now, I've had a series of pet emergencies and a parental death. She looked and acted fine, so her vet visit just kept getting put off. Life gets in the way, and I really regret putting it off, now. Please know that.

I agree with @AHBD. I would get a weight on her and monitor that. If it starts dropping then consider the vet.
Without her pooping, the only way the vet is going to do a parasite count is by giving her an enema and that's insanely dangerous. In my opinion it's far more dangerous than it's worth.

 

[jclee]

Thank you both so much. I wasn't sure what to do, and this really helps!

 

[AHBD]

Even a slight weight loss is normal though so don't really even worry about that. My guys always lose about 15-20 grams, once in a great while even more but they have had long lives and no ill effects, always gain it back slowly.

BTW, do you have pics of her set up, lights, etc you can post ? Also a pic to show her size and a list of what her diet is ?

 

[jclee]

Her timers go on in just over an hour. I will get you fresh pictures of everything in a little bit. Thanks for asking.

 

[jclee]

Enclosure: 4x2x2 enclosure with substrate (sand/soil mix) and plants (bioactive cleanup crew of springtails and giant canyon isopods)
Lights: T5 arcadia with UVI 5.2 at highest, directly under light on log (lower ranges elsewhere in enclosure.
(You'll see a second T5, which is a grow light for the plants.)
Heat:
Ambient: 88-92
Basking: 104
Diet: Staples include dandelion greens, kale, collard greens. I often add small amounts of radicchio and/or romaine. She occasionally gets cucumber or bell pepper or zucchini in small amounts as a garnish to top the salad. Insects once a week only: Usually crickets (a staple); I occasionally offer mealworms, morio worms, or fly spikes as a treat to keep things interesting depending on what I have available. Weight: I don't weigh her regularly enough. I used to. It looks like the last weight I remembered to actually record was last winter, and she was at 318; summer before was more like 335 (so that's approximately her seasonal weight fluctuation range). She came to me a bit obese and never having had vitamins, so getting her slimmed down and supplemented (her eyes are no longer "droopy") was quite an accomplishment. I stopped checking weight as often once her weight entered a healthier range.



Question: How frequently should I weigh her now that I am supervising a brumation? What should I keep an eye out for? What do I do if she raises any of those "red flags?"

Pictures include enclosure, fixtures, and some photos of her from earlier this month before this all started.

 

[xp29]

Enclosure: 4x2x2 enclosure with substrate (sand/soil mix) and plants (bioactive cleanup crew of springtails and giant canyon isopods)
Lights: T5 arcadia with UVI 5.2 at highest, directly under light on log (lower ranges elsewhere in enclosure.
(You'll see a second T5, which is a grow light for the plants.)
Heat:
Ambient: 88-92
Basking: 104
Diet: Staples include dandelion greens, kale, collard greens. I often add small amounts of radicchio and/or romaine. She occasionally gets cucumber or bell pepper or zucchini in small amounts as a garnish to top the salad. Insects once a week only: Usually crickets (a staple); I occasionally offer mealworms, morio worms, or fly spikes as a treat to keep things interesting depending on what I have available. Weight: I don't weigh her regularly enough. I used to. It looks like the last weight I remembered to actually record was last winter, and she was at 318; summer before was more like 335 (so that's approximately her seasonal weight fluctuation range). She came to me a bit obese and never having had vitamins, so getting her slimmed down and supplemented (her eyes are no longer "droopy") was quite an accomplishment. I stopped checking weight as often once her weight entered a healthier range.



Question: How frequently should I weigh her now that I am supervising a brumation? What should I keep an eye out for? What do I do if she raises any of those "red flags?"

Pictures include enclosure, fixtures, and some photos of her from earlier this month before this all started.

View attachment 92612 View attachment 92613 View attachment 92614 View attachment 92615 View attachment 92616 View attachment 92617 View attachment 92618 View attachment 92619

Oh she is a cutie pie.
Like @AHBD said, a little weight loss isn't anything to worry about. It would be huge drops that would be concerning. I have one in brumation right now, he's been down about a week. I'll be getting his weight today and then like every ten days till he wakes.

 

[AHBD]

Enclosure: 4x2x2 enclosure with substrate (sand/soil mix) and plants (bioactive cleanup crew of springtails and giant canyon isopods)
Lights: T5 arcadia with UVI 5.2 at highest, directly under light on log (lower ranges elsewhere in enclosure.
(You'll see a second T5, which is a grow light for the plants.)
Heat:
Ambient: 88-92
Basking: 104
Diet: Staples include dandelion greens, kale, collard greens. I often add small amounts of radicchio and/or romaine. She occasionally gets cucumber or bell pepper or zucchini in small amounts as a garnish to top the salad. Insects once a week only: Usually crickets (a staple); I occasionally offer mealworms, morio worms, or fly spikes as a treat to keep things interesting depending on what I have available. Weight: I don't weigh her regularly enough. I used to. It looks like the last weight I remembered to actually record was last winter, and she was at 318; summer before was more like 335 (so that's approximately her seasonal weight fluctuation range). She came to me a bit obese and never having had vitamins, so getting her slimmed down and supplemented (her eyes are no longer "droopy") was quite an accomplishment. I stopped checking weight as often once her weight entered a healthier range.



Question: How frequently should I weigh her now that I am supervising a brumation? What should I keep an eye out for? What do I do if she raises any of those "red flags?"

Pictures include enclosure, fixtures, and some photos of her from earlier this month before this all started.

View attachment 92612 View attachment 92613 View attachment 92614 View attachment 92615 View attachment 92616 View attachment 92617 View attachment 92618 View attachment 92619

Nice set up + great care you're taking of her ! She is a little on the light side weight wise. How much was she when you say she was obese ? Do you know her length ? But as long as she's healthy that's the important thing. I don't weigh mine during brumation, I just check to see if they have moved at all or if their eyes are open. I might offer water [ but not a soak or bath ] but generally I leave them be for the 3 months they usually sleep.

I'm going to check your other pics out, always fun to see out what other critters people are keeping. EDITED for atrocious typos

 

[jclee]

How much was she when you say she was obese ? Do you know her length ? But as long as she's healthy that's the important thing.

Good question! I checked my records from winter 2022, and the highest weight I've got listed is 357g. But by winter, I already had her on a diet (i.e. reduced and healthier bug selection, really), since that was after I first got her to a vet in late summer or early autumn.

I officially adopted her in July of 2022 and got her to the vet right away, since it was obvious that she had parasites. (Terribly runny and stinky poo at the time). The vet gave her a Body Condition Score of 4/5 during that first appointment, so... she used to be overweight but not obsese. I know that a lot of research is coming out about obese reptile pets and fatty liver disease, so I suspect that the vet was being mindful of advising people to keep reptiles at a healthy weight. (In other words, I doubt it was quite as much of a priority as the pinworms were.)

Unfortunately, I've never actually measured her length and I can't measure it now that she's under. I don't think she has a terribly large frame for a dragon, or anything. She just seems fairly average in stature/length.

 

[xp29]

Good question! I checked my records from winter 2022, and the highest weight I've got listed is 357g. But by winter, I already had her on a diet (i.e. reduced and healthier bug selection, really), since that was after I first got her to a vet in late summer or early autumn.

I officially adopted her in July of 2022 and got her to the vet right away, since it was obvious that she had parasites. (Terribly runny and stinky poo at the time). The vet gave her a Body Condition Score of 4/5 during that first appointment, so... she used to be overweight but not obsese. I know that a lot of research is coming out about obese reptile pets and fatty liver disease, so I suspect that the vet was being mindful of advising people to keep reptiles at a healthy weight. (In other words, I doubt it was quite as much of a priority as the pinworms were.)

Unfortunately, I've never actually measured her length and I can't measure it now that she's under. I don't think she has a terribly large frame for a dragon, or anything. She just seems fairly average in stature/length.

I don't think the 350 range is anywhere close to obese. Ruby is 465 grams and she is a small dragon and recovering for a bout of pin worms and has mbd. The hump in her spine makes her look bigger than she is. She has no fat pads on her head to speak of and her tail is just now starting to plump back to normal. She has always been on the thin side even when she was 550 grams. Before Zen passed he was over 1300 grams at 24 inches. The vet always said he wasn't obese everytime I asked. I had a female named Puff that was even bigger than Zen. She was more than 25 inches long. (She was a German giant though).
I'm not saying we should all keep them on the heavy side, just that like people we can see if they are fat or thin. I think visual checking is as or more important than actual weight because just like us there is all kinds of frames sizes for them and whats heavy for one could be to thin for another.

 

[jclee]

The vet was going by body shape. The Body Condition Score is widely used to guage many animals' relative weight based on ratios and proportions (rather than numbers on a scale.) The dragon really was visibly plump when I took it into the vet for the first time, but I do not know what her weight was at that first vet visit. She was also only about 1 year old at the time of that first vet visit, and she had some growing to do still.

Any weights that I have mentioned were taken after then, after she had been taken off of her previous owner's diet of overfeeding superworms regularly. She has maintained about the same body type that you see in the pictures since she lost the extra weight.

I do not know what she weighed before she was put on a diet. The weights I mentioned are from after that time.

 

[xp29]

The vet was going by body shape. The Body Condition Score is widely used to guage many animals' relative weight based on ratios and proportions (rather than numbers on a scale.) The dragon really was visibly plump when I took it into the vet for the first time, but I do not know what her weight was at that first vet visit. She was also only about 1 year old at the time of that first vet visit, and she had some growing to do still.

Any weights that I have mentioned were taken after then, after she had been taken off of her previous owner's diet of overfeeding superworms regularly. She has maintained about the same body type that you see in the pictures since she lost the extra weight.

I do not know what she weighed before she was put on a diet. The weights I mentioned are from after that time.

she looks good. I just try to speak up because sometimes people get hung up on an idea like a specific weight for instance and that isn't always the right course. Sound like you have it covered though

 

[jclee]

she looks good. I just try to speak up because sometimes people get hung up on an idea like a specific weight for instance and that isn't always the right course. Sound like you have it covered though

Well, now I'm curious to see if I can find a picture from within the first year that I had her, when she was still kind of pudgy (which was cute, though not healthy). If I find one any time soon, I will post it for you.

I promise, I'm not getting hung up on the numbers of it, though I understand that can happen.

 

[jclee]

Okay, these are not terribly flattering photos, but they're kind of cute. I think we'd been on a healthier diet, already, when I took these.