Deciding whether to use Baytril- mouth rot

[JayTheDragonTamer]

So my beardie, Spike, recently visited the vet for a check up and to address some possible (very early stage) yellow fungus and to get her opinion on his teeth.
I have heard so many horror stories about YF, so although I couldn’t verify if that’s what it is, I got some lamisil and got a vet appointment.
The vet said it could possibly be very early stage, but advised me to take less invasive measures first (raising temperatures- nighttime and cooler side, lowering humidity, stopping baths, and keeping the tank immaculately clean). If things progress, she will order a skin scraping. Her reservations about this were: 1)anesthetics are relatively high risk for reptiles 2) the areas would be difficult to get a sample from (under arms, possibly vent area) 3) Cost. Anesthetic+ Post op stay+ cost of actual procedure would already be a big bill, but unfortunately I also live on a small island, and the sample would have to be shipped off to be tested at another lab.
So I took the vets advice with the less invasive measures for the moment. But here’s the issue. He has what looks to be some kind of mouth rot or something. I was told by another keeper that they can get staining and buildup.. but I wasn’t convinced. The vet couldn’t get a good look and had to rely on some photos I had taken but agreed it looked like stomatitis, and prescribed Loxicom (for inflammation and pain) and Baytril as an antibiotic.

I have major concerns when it comes to Baytril as it’s notoriously harsh and I was very concerned with the idea of using an antibiotic on an animal that could possibly have YF. I have heard that’s dangerous. It could cause any YF to worsen. So.. I was so concerned with that risk that I didn’t take the Baytril only the Loxicom.
I’m not sure if that was a very wise choice. I’m starting to think I should do the antibiotics.. but then again I still have doubts. He’s just finished the 5 day course of Loxicom (0.26ml daily with food) and this is what I’ve found. His appetite has been really good. I wouldn’t have said he wasn’t eating much beforehand, because he has never really been very food motivated, but he has always been fussy, especially when it comes to salad. But these last couple days?? He downed his Dubia like a madman and what really shocked me is I found his bowl of salad had been munched on, frequently. In the past, I always had to put veggies in his mouth to get him to eat, or stand there and attempt to hand feed every piece (asides from his favorites which aren’t to be fed often- blueberries + mange tu).
As Loxicom doesn’t increase appetite, I definitely suspect he had uncomfort while eating. Now that the 5 day course is over, I don’t want that to come back. And after properly taking a look in his mouth today, I am starting to really have second thoughts about bypassing the Baytril. His teeth look pretty bad and his gums look abnormal. It just seems like classic mouth rot to me, which obviously would be treated with an oral antibiotic…
And I’ve also realized I’ve basically treated him for the pain and inflammation not treated the actual ailment, so I feel like a terrible reptile dad.
But I just can’t put aside my doubts. The possibility of YF freaks me out. It’s such a serious and fast spreading disease that I would not want to play around with weakening his immune system and causing it to take hold If I put him on an antibiotic. And there seems to be loads of stories from other users here who had bad complications from using Baytril specifically. I’m just not sure what to do.

I really would appreciate a second opinion or some advice from some of the members here. If I could get your thoughts on any of this that would be awesome. I can provide any information needed. Thanks

 

[JayTheDragonTamer]

Here’s his basic info, ask for clarification or for any other info if needed-
* Age: Roughly 4. Adopted July 2020
* Size: 18-19 inches long, 652 grams in weight. The vet said he has good fat stores and muscle condition and is not over or underweight.
* Size of the enclosure: Currently in a 40 gallon :/ Will be in a really nice 75 gallon diy terrarium once the glass for it comes.
* Temperatures: (raised per vet’s advice) basking- almost 41 degrees c, cool side- 30ish c
* Humidity: lower 20s under basking spot, ambient of roughly 31-34
* Substrate: Usually kept on slate tile, switched to cardboard/newspaper (for maintaining extra good hygiene amidst YF possibly)
* Diet: sub adult/medium-ish Dubia + large hoppers as the staple. Usually around 6-10 daily. Superworms/waxworms when I can get them as an occasional treat.
* Fresh salad provided daily. He barely touches this. Tends to be a mix of things, Dandelion greens, Arugula, squash, Pak Choi, Swiss chard, grated carrot, green beans, bell pepper, various occasional fruits +beardie safe leaves and flowers from my garden. Staples are SO hard to find here >:/ I hand feed him until he eats some.
* Other info: Previous owner didn’t provide adequate uvb, which had the lasting result of difficult and incomplete shedding. He was not raised to eat greens well. Shedding has recently started occurring in larger areas and more symmetrically which the vet says is a sign of improvement.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, it sounds like your care of Spike is pretty good [ he does need a larger tank as you already mentioned ] but pictures are 100 % helpful to determine if he has Y.F. and mouth rot. BTW, skin scraping wouldn't require anesthesia. Here's how to post pics :

https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ use the XIMG to upload them

I didn't notice what type of uvb you have, sorry if I missed it. His diet is good but you can reduce the insect feedings to just 2-3 X a week at most. It sounds like he may be a little overweight if he's 18" long. It's good to know his exact length. Skipping some insect feedings may get him more interested in veggies, too.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I agree, your setup is good. If you can get pictures posted, both of your dragon & your
setup, that would be terrific!
It is always a concern for using antibiotics on reptiles due to its contribution of side effects.
If the mouth rot is not bad, then you could opt out of antibiotic use to see how he does. If
it doesn't seem to be clearing up with oral cleaning, etc then you could consider using the
Baytril for a short treatment cycle. You can always use a probiotic too, for help him with his
tummy while on an antibiotic.
Yellow fungus can definitely be complicated & worsened by the use of a harsh antibiotic. You
could consider colloidal silver for help with cleaning & clearing up any mouth rot issues, too.
Where do you live, in the US or a US island, or out of the US?

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

 

[JayTheDragonTamer]

Hey, Thanks for the super quick replies.

AHBD-
I’ll work on uploading some photos ASAP. It’s been a while since I measured him, and to be honest, I’m not sure they were very exact, so I’ll go try that again.
He gets a lot of free roam time.. which he uses to race around the room. Needless to say he is not very still when I try and figure out his length.
Yeah I was way off, looks almost 20in actually..
I know, you’re 100% right about the tank size. I’m working on that. I should have the last bits soon and it’ll probably be finished in a month.
Current uvb is a Reptisun 10.0 w/ reflector, mounted inside the tank. I’m going to fit the new tank with a HO T5 Arcadia. I haven’t decided on a percent uvb yet it’ll depend on the finished measurements.

Lastly, I don’t have access to a vet that specializes in reptiles :,( This vet is one of two exotic vets on the island, and belongs to vets4pets. I don’t know how experienced they are but it might be why she said they’ll only do the procedure under anesthetic.

 

[JayTheDragonTamer]

His hide is under the hammock in the back.
I have 3 humidity and temp probes. Temps and levels are stated in that info provided earlier.

And there’s a closeup of his teeth. The gums and surrounding area seem really discolored too.

(The small bump on the edge of his chin was from an old injury pre me adopting him. The vet said it’s fine, just tends to retain shed.)

Tracie-
I’m fairly new here, but I’ve seen you around loads, and man, it’s great to have your thoughts on this. You clearly know your stuff.
Spike’s doing good, although today will be his first day without the Loxicom. I’m waiting to see if he goes back to eating like he was or if he’ll keep this up.
I’m not sure how serious the mouth rot is to be honest. I don’t know much about it other than what some general research has told me, but I’d definitely like to prevent it getting any worse.
How do you go about with oral cleaning? Is there a low stress way to do it? Spike is good natured but really hates his face being touched. Would I maybe be better off risking the antibiotic?

I live in the Channel Islands off the coast of England and France. Getting my hands on anything specific is difficult, especially shipping stuff in.. I’ve already hunted around for betadine with no success. I have Hibiscrub as an alternative if needed, although it can’t be used in the mouth. For probiotics I could possibly get some bene bac or soy yougurt, although they aren’t the best.
I have considered ordering Acidophilus + colloidal silver from beardeddragon.co / beautiful dragons/ bug-de-lite but unfortunately shipping costs are always likely to be massive. I found some in a health store but it was over £40!!
How great of a risk is it to use an antibiotic with potential YF? Thanks.

 

[AHBD]

Hi Jay, his body condition looks great as far as length/weight and his set up is good aside from it being small. But good news, he does not have mouth rot, they can get slight discoloration because of the food they eat and unlike humans they can't brush their teeth. You can get a baby tooth brush and try your best to get it in for a quick brush as often as you can.

As for the Y.F, can you get some pics of it or are the white areas what you think is it ? If so, that is 100 % not Y.F. It's probably just patches of unshed skin, we see that here all the time. Get some close ups of the back area though so I can see it better, but it's not Y.F.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I actually own the bug-de-lite online store! I would be happy to check shipping prices for
you. Shipping can be expensive but I do ship to the UK & other areas, pretty regularly.
I agree, he does not have mouth rot. As AHBD stated, they do tend to get stains from the
insects they eat so that is very normal.
If he did have yellow fungus, antibiotics would be the last thing he should be on.
Organic non dairy soy yogurt is perfectly fine if you can find that for probiotics. Or the non
dairy Acidophilus is great also.
If you would like for me to check shipping, you can PM me your shipping info & I can check
on it for you.
How is his appetite doing?

Tracie

 

[JayTheDragonTamer]

Thanks to both of you!
I’m really relieved it’s not mouth rot for sure. I’m going to cut back on the occasional fruit and feed him plenty of crunchier food. I’m lucky that Dubai and locusts are actually crunchy so at least I don’t have to reconsider my feeders lol.
I’m also considering a pack of those dried flowers and leaves “salad toppers” Spike has been known to munch on veggies that dry out under the lights.
Maybe this will help with the staining and the plague.

His appetite is down again, and even more than usual. I definitely put that down to shedding though, because he’s finally doing a normal, healthy shed! Almost his whole back, which is such a win. Due to improper uvb before I adopted him, he’s never shed in pieces or full sections. He would shed tiny areas and only ever his legs and the sides of his face. I’m super happy about this, as he had a lot of damaged scales that are going to be replaced.

 

[AHBD]

Jay, do you have pics of what your vet thinks is the fungus ? I haven't seen those yet.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How are things?
The dubia & locusts are fine for him to eat. The crunchy insects are good for helping
keep the teeth cleaned off some.
That sounds like a good idea using herbs as salad toppers, he will probably like that.
They do tend to have a decrease in appetite when they are shedding. He looks really
good there!

Tracie

 

[JayTheDragonTamer]

Well, here’s a pic but there’s pretty much nothing to see now. It’s hard to see in the photo but he’s going to shed around his vent and his femoral pores there. In fact, he’s either currently shedding or has just shed every single area that the vet thought could be YF.
Because it’s cleared up pretty much completely with Lamisil, low humidity and increased temps. It might have been some other kind of fungus maybe, I’m not sure.
“It” was under his arms and legs, around that vent area and under the extra skin at the bottom of his beard. He shed under his bearded this morning and as you can see.. there’s nothing there!!!
I’m so relieved. He’s been restless lately but I think everything overall good.
Thanks for the help

 

[AHBD]

Yeah, there's no sign of Y.F. at all, that's great ! It must have just been the uneven shed patches. The Lamisil would soften it and help the shed to come loose. I'm glad it turned out O.K !