recently my beardie hasnt been eating a lot and he seemed pretty sick, so i took him to the vet and it turns out that he has MBD. the vet suggested force feeding in a syringe and also gave us calcium injections to give him, and he does well with the injections so far. the only problem is that ive been trying to give him more food with vitamins and calcium, but he wont even open his mouth and he closes his eyes. he felt better for a couple of days and ate some crickets but hes starting to not eat again. when we give him the force fed formula, he’ll eat a little of it and spit out the rest. he also seems really agitated all the time. im not sure what to do and im running out of options, i really wanna help him and it makes me sad to see him in pain. any type of help would be appreciated. his cage is fairly big, we use both night and morning lights along with a UVB light. his cage temperature is around 100 degrees or slightly more.
beardie wont eat and has MBD
- Thread starter neanbean
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Hello,
Sorry that your dragon has metabolic bone disease, that is too bad.
They can be very stubborn about being "assist fed" & it is challenging for you too.
Will she not take food from licking it off of her snout? That is less invasive & not as
stressful. What type of food are you feeding him, perhaps he doesn't like the flavor?
Did the vet give you any oral liquid calcium? The shots are risky if given for too long
of a period of time. I highly recommend oral calcium much more, it is safer.
What type/brand of UVB light are you using, how old is it? How far from your dragon
is it mounted?
Can you post pictures of your dragon & your setup for us?
Try to keep him around 80 overnight in his tank, to help boost his immune system.
Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
Sorry that your dragon has metabolic bone disease, that is too bad.
They can be very stubborn about being "assist fed" & it is challenging for you too.
Will she not take food from licking it off of her snout? That is less invasive & not as
stressful. What type of food are you feeding him, perhaps he doesn't like the flavor?
Did the vet give you any oral liquid calcium? The shots are risky if given for too long
of a period of time. I highly recommend oral calcium much more, it is safer.
What type/brand of UVB light are you using, how old is it? How far from your dragon
is it mounted?
Can you post pictures of your dragon & your setup for us?
Try to keep him around 80 overnight in his tank, to help boost his immune system.
Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
we have tried putting the food in front of him or on his snout, but he wont take it that way unfortunately. i actually went and bought some liquid calcium to put in his water and food, so i was wondering if that would be good enough. he also has powdered calcium along with that too, but i dont try to give him too much of it. the light brands are exo terra and zoo med, both of which are fairly new.
Hello,
He is very thin. Do you have a red light for basking in there? I can't tell from the picture
what type of UVB you have, a tube or a compact/coil type?
If you are using an Exoterra long tube or a compact/coil, I would highly recommend getting
a T5 tube bulb. Arcadia makes a really good one. It is a high output bulb & the UVB is very
good. You will need to get a T5 light fixture, as well for it. Here is a link to order both of
them:
http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/fixtures/t5-high-output/
That is just the fixture. He has combos that you can buy the fixture along with the bulb.
Be sure you get the 12% though. He really needs a good UVB light.
http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/bulbs/arcadia/
This link has all of the T5 lights. They do make a 14% now. How far would the tube be
from him?
The calcium spray/liquid is fine, but he really should have it orally dosed. Since he is
getting a calcium shot, oral calcium 5 days per week should be adequate. I wouldn't use
the powdered along with that, or he may get too much. What is his weight & I can try to
dose him for you, if you need.
Since he already has a back injury, it's best to keep his basking areas as low as possible so
he doesn't have to move or climb to bask & get his UVB lighting.
Keep trying with the food, it is hard on him. He likely just doesn't feel very well which
compounds the problem of feeding him.
Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
He is very thin. Do you have a red light for basking in there? I can't tell from the picture
what type of UVB you have, a tube or a compact/coil type?
If you are using an Exoterra long tube or a compact/coil, I would highly recommend getting
a T5 tube bulb. Arcadia makes a really good one. It is a high output bulb & the UVB is very
good. You will need to get a T5 light fixture, as well for it. Here is a link to order both of
them:
http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/fixtures/t5-high-output/
That is just the fixture. He has combos that you can buy the fixture along with the bulb.
Be sure you get the 12% though. He really needs a good UVB light.
http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/bulbs/arcadia/
This link has all of the T5 lights. They do make a 14% now. How far would the tube be
from him?
The calcium spray/liquid is fine, but he really should have it orally dosed. Since he is
getting a calcium shot, oral calcium 5 days per week should be adequate. I wouldn't use
the powdered along with that, or he may get too much. What is his weight & I can try to
dose him for you, if you need.
Since he already has a back injury, it's best to keep his basking areas as low as possible so
he doesn't have to move or climb to bask & get his UVB lighting.
Keep trying with the food, it is hard on him. He likely just doesn't feel very well which
compounds the problem of feeding him.
Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
I'm sorry you're beardie is so sick, but this is completely due to inadequate UVB lighting. It doesn't matter how much Calcium or Multivitamins you give him, or how healthy his diet is, without a very strong, adequate UVB tube, in this case as Tracie already told you, he absolutely needs a T5 strength UVB tube, the 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVb tube ($23 on Amazon.com) and then a 24" T5-rated tube fixture (cheapest that includes a metal reflector inside it is the Sunblaster brand 24" T5 tube fixture, $26 on Amazon.com). You can have the T5 UVB tube on top of a mesh lid, but it still must be within 11" of his basking spot, and replaced once a year at the longest. Both this T5 UVb tube and a bright-white colored Basking Bulb (that is the adequate wattage to keep all 3 of the tank temperature zones within the correct ranges) need to both be positioned over the Hot Side of the tank and both right alongside each other, and then you need to move his Basking Platform directly underneath both lights so that he gets both while he's basking. They both must be on for at least 13-14 every single day.
You need to get rid of the red night light, he needs NO nighttime heat source at all unless the temperature inside his tank drips below 65 degrees, which it most likely does not, your house would have to be 60 degrees or below at night for his tank to drop below 65 degrees. The Australian Desert where they are from, at night is #1) Pitch-Black with no light at all, and #2) Very cool, even cold...As a result Bearded Dragons sleep soundly and comfortably only when it is Pitch-Black inside their tank, and considerably cooler than it is in the daytime. Even if you wanted to keep his tank a bit warmer than normal at nighttime since he's very sick, you still cannot use a light of any kind, least of all a colored light that is red, blue, green, yellow, purple, black, "moonlight", etc. If you wanted to add any type of nighttime heat source, it should only be a very low wattage (like 5-10 watts) Ceramic Heat Emitter (CHE), which screws into the lamp you already have, but it only emits heat and no light. For now, please completely turn off that red light.
Bearded Dragons see in full color, and as such you cannot use any colored lights for them during the day (most importantly) or at night. That red light is confusing his night and day periods, masking his food, and hurting his eyes. And again, he'll be much more comfortable at night if it's cooler.
I hope his daytime Basking Bulb is a bright-white Basking Bulb or Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb, you're trying to replicate natural sunlight over his Basking Spot/Platform, and you do this by putting a very strong, adequate wavelength, long UVb tube right alongside a single Bright-White colored Basking Bulb, both over the Hot Side of the tank and directly over his Basking Spot. Most of us do not buy expensive Reptile Specialty Basking Bulb, we simply use regular Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs, like you buy at Lowes, Home Depot, or Tractor Supply (they have 2-packs of the par38 Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs for $10)...I don't know the size of your tank or what your 3 temperature zones measure, but for reference, usually a 40 Gallon Breeder tank requires a 100 watt or 125 watt at most, bright-white colored Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb over the Hot Side of the tank to reach the proper temperature zones.
The main issue here is that you need to get the T5 strength, long UVb tube immediately. Without 13-14 hours a day of strong, adequate UVb light, Desert Reptiles (especially Bearded Dragons) stop manufacturing any Vitamin D3 at all, and this in-turn stops them from being able to absorb any of the nutrition (calories, protein, fat, carbs, etc.), vitamins, or minerals (calcium, etc.) that you feed them in either their live insects, their fresh greens/veggies, or their supplements, such as calcium or multivitamin powder or liquid. Instead, they just excrete everything, and this creates severe malnutrition and several different nutritional deficiency diseases, including MBD and Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency. Their bone density weakens, they totally lose their appetites, they become extremely lethargic, their muscles start to waste away, and the final stage ends with broken bones, paralysis, and death. Your poor little guy is definitely suffering from severe Calcium deficiency, malnutrition, MBD, and probably kidney and liver disease/failure....he needs the T5 strength UVB tube immediately, without it on for at least 13-14 hours a day, he's not going to get any better...
It's a shame, but 95% or more of the UVB lights that are sold are totally inadequate for Desert Reptiles, and this includes most of the UVb lights that are labeled as being meant for Bearded Dragons. Pretty much ALL compact (regular lightbulb shape) and coil (same as a compact but in a spiral/coil shape) UVB lights are far too weak to be used for a Bearded Dragon, they are pretty much all half the UVB wattage/strength that a Bearded Dragon needs (13 watts or less in most cases)...And on top of the UVB lights being inadequate and far too weak, most people have them on top of a mesh lid to the tank, which blocks an additional 40% of the UVB light from the already too weak UVb light, so their dragons have basically gotten ZERO UVB light...they also must be replaced once every 6 months at the most, as they have a very, very fast UVB decay rate, so even though they are burnt out and they still turn on, they no longer emit any UVB light after 6 months old, some of them it's closer to 3 months old.
Also, all compact and coil UVB bulbs and the much weaker T8 UVB tubes must be within at least 6" or closer to the dragon's basking spot/platform, in addition to having to be unobstructed by anything like a mesh lid or a clear plastic cover, and most people don't know this, plus putting those UVB bulbs that close to your dragon can cause eye damage and neurological damage, so this is why Dragon owners must buy a very strong, long UVB tube that is of the T5 strength (24 watt minimum). (your guy absolutely must have a T5 strength UVB tube and fixture, a T8 strength UVB tube isn't going to help him much at all, and they tend to actually be more expensive or the same price as the 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube and a 24" T5-rated tube fixture cost on Amazon.com).
There is a post in the "General Discussion" forum here titled something like "Amazon.com Links for the 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO and 24" T5-Rated Fixture" that contains the links for both the 22" UVB tube he needs, and the 24" T5-rated tube fixture for this UVB tube on Amazon. Best prices I've found anywhere, I just ordered 3 tube replacements for my guys 2 months ago...
You need to get rid of the red night light, he needs NO nighttime heat source at all unless the temperature inside his tank drips below 65 degrees, which it most likely does not, your house would have to be 60 degrees or below at night for his tank to drop below 65 degrees. The Australian Desert where they are from, at night is #1) Pitch-Black with no light at all, and #2) Very cool, even cold...As a result Bearded Dragons sleep soundly and comfortably only when it is Pitch-Black inside their tank, and considerably cooler than it is in the daytime. Even if you wanted to keep his tank a bit warmer than normal at nighttime since he's very sick, you still cannot use a light of any kind, least of all a colored light that is red, blue, green, yellow, purple, black, "moonlight", etc. If you wanted to add any type of nighttime heat source, it should only be a very low wattage (like 5-10 watts) Ceramic Heat Emitter (CHE), which screws into the lamp you already have, but it only emits heat and no light. For now, please completely turn off that red light.
Bearded Dragons see in full color, and as such you cannot use any colored lights for them during the day (most importantly) or at night. That red light is confusing his night and day periods, masking his food, and hurting his eyes. And again, he'll be much more comfortable at night if it's cooler.
I hope his daytime Basking Bulb is a bright-white Basking Bulb or Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb, you're trying to replicate natural sunlight over his Basking Spot/Platform, and you do this by putting a very strong, adequate wavelength, long UVb tube right alongside a single Bright-White colored Basking Bulb, both over the Hot Side of the tank and directly over his Basking Spot. Most of us do not buy expensive Reptile Specialty Basking Bulb, we simply use regular Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs, like you buy at Lowes, Home Depot, or Tractor Supply (they have 2-packs of the par38 Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs for $10)...I don't know the size of your tank or what your 3 temperature zones measure, but for reference, usually a 40 Gallon Breeder tank requires a 100 watt or 125 watt at most, bright-white colored Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb over the Hot Side of the tank to reach the proper temperature zones.
The main issue here is that you need to get the T5 strength, long UVb tube immediately. Without 13-14 hours a day of strong, adequate UVb light, Desert Reptiles (especially Bearded Dragons) stop manufacturing any Vitamin D3 at all, and this in-turn stops them from being able to absorb any of the nutrition (calories, protein, fat, carbs, etc.), vitamins, or minerals (calcium, etc.) that you feed them in either their live insects, their fresh greens/veggies, or their supplements, such as calcium or multivitamin powder or liquid. Instead, they just excrete everything, and this creates severe malnutrition and several different nutritional deficiency diseases, including MBD and Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency. Their bone density weakens, they totally lose their appetites, they become extremely lethargic, their muscles start to waste away, and the final stage ends with broken bones, paralysis, and death. Your poor little guy is definitely suffering from severe Calcium deficiency, malnutrition, MBD, and probably kidney and liver disease/failure....he needs the T5 strength UVB tube immediately, without it on for at least 13-14 hours a day, he's not going to get any better...
It's a shame, but 95% or more of the UVB lights that are sold are totally inadequate for Desert Reptiles, and this includes most of the UVb lights that are labeled as being meant for Bearded Dragons. Pretty much ALL compact (regular lightbulb shape) and coil (same as a compact but in a spiral/coil shape) UVB lights are far too weak to be used for a Bearded Dragon, they are pretty much all half the UVB wattage/strength that a Bearded Dragon needs (13 watts or less in most cases)...And on top of the UVB lights being inadequate and far too weak, most people have them on top of a mesh lid to the tank, which blocks an additional 40% of the UVB light from the already too weak UVb light, so their dragons have basically gotten ZERO UVB light...they also must be replaced once every 6 months at the most, as they have a very, very fast UVB decay rate, so even though they are burnt out and they still turn on, they no longer emit any UVB light after 6 months old, some of them it's closer to 3 months old.
Also, all compact and coil UVB bulbs and the much weaker T8 UVB tubes must be within at least 6" or closer to the dragon's basking spot/platform, in addition to having to be unobstructed by anything like a mesh lid or a clear plastic cover, and most people don't know this, plus putting those UVB bulbs that close to your dragon can cause eye damage and neurological damage, so this is why Dragon owners must buy a very strong, long UVB tube that is of the T5 strength (24 watt minimum). (your guy absolutely must have a T5 strength UVB tube and fixture, a T8 strength UVB tube isn't going to help him much at all, and they tend to actually be more expensive or the same price as the 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube and a 24" T5-rated tube fixture cost on Amazon.com).
There is a post in the "General Discussion" forum here titled something like "Amazon.com Links for the 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO and 24" T5-Rated Fixture" that contains the links for both the 22" UVB tube he needs, and the 24" T5-rated tube fixture for this UVB tube on Amazon. Best prices I've found anywhere, I just ordered 3 tube replacements for my guys 2 months ago...
Hello,
How is your boy doing today?
Have you put more thought into upgrading his UVB Lighting thus far? Try to be sure he isn't
having to climb too much in his tank, because since he has had a back injury, the integrity of
his skeletal system is probably in question also. He is vulnerable to more injuries.
Please keep us posted on your dragon & how else we can help.
Tracie
How is your boy doing today?
Have you put more thought into upgrading his UVB Lighting thus far? Try to be sure he isn't
having to climb too much in his tank, because since he has had a back injury, the integrity of
his skeletal system is probably in question also. He is vulnerable to more injuries.
Please keep us posted on your dragon & how else we can help.
Tracie
hi, Leo is doing fine he’s been moving around a little more and attempting to eat lettuce. we had to give him some water because he wouldnt drink himself. thank you both for the helpful comments, i need to look into purchasing better lights. i’ll also try turning off his red light tonight because as i read it about it it does in fact say it disturbs their sleeping patterns. do you think it will harshly affect him that his light is off during night because hes never had it off before except for once. im just worried that he might get too cold. i read about this light where it gives off some heat, but emits no light. any other suggestions would help a ton, thank you.
Hi there, yes you can get a CHE [ ceramic heat emitter ] that gives off heat but no light . Poor little guy, he definitely needs the good uvb bulbs that were mentioned ASAP. It's good that you're trying to help him now because this is a serious condition. Good that you got him to drink, too. You can try mixing raw honey with a good smoothie using greens like turnip, mustard, collard, arugula and veggies like squash + fresh green beans with a pinch of calcium powder added. Lettuce doesn't have the nutritional value but green + red leaf are much better than iceburg.
You can also get some Oxbow Critical Care for him, a nutritious supplement. Another thing to try is squishing a cricket until the guts come out the back end + rubbing it lightly on his snout. Some dragons will get interested when they smell + taste it.
Best wishes for you + Leo !
You can also get some Oxbow Critical Care for him, a nutritious supplement. Another thing to try is squishing a cricket until the guts come out the back end + rubbing it lightly on his snout. Some dragons will get interested when they smell + taste it.
Best wishes for you + Leo !
Hello,
How are things today, is he still trying to move around more?
As suggested, a ceramic heat emitter is a great idea to keep him warm, but, doesn't emit any
light. A heating pad, set on LOW, with a towel in between him & the pad is helpful too if you
can't get a ceramic heat emitter soon.
Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
How are things today, is he still trying to move around more?
As suggested, a ceramic heat emitter is a great idea to keep him warm, but, doesn't emit any
light. A heating pad, set on LOW, with a towel in between him & the pad is helpful too if you
can't get a ceramic heat emitter soon.
Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
Leo is doing better than the last few days I’d think. he’s still not eating much, and last night i tried turning off his light for him to sleep and he slept like a baby. he’s always irritated during the day and his beard is black, but last night he seemed very peaceful and cozy. he’s moving around a bit more and experimenting with the food that we lay out, so its a good sign.
I'm glad he seems to be doing better, but please, get him a T5 strength UVB tube, at least 22" long, ASAP. He's not going to come back from this without one, he's in really bad shape, as his bone density is pretty much non-existent, that's why his spine fractured. Without any UVb light he's going to eventually just pass away, and he will continue to break bones and not eat until you get him the long UVB tube and fixture for it. You cannot have a desert reptile and no UVB light...
He’s been doing the same, nothing has really changed about his appetite or behavior. i’m not completely sure which UVB brand we use for him, i think it might be one from zoo med but not the reptisun one that was mentioned. yes i’ve tried to give him calcium too in his food but he wont eat his food anyway. could another explanation for his lethargy and loss of apetite be brumation??? Leo is already 1 yr+ old so i think he would be brumating but this would be his first time. is it okay if bearded dragons dont eat or drink during brumation? i know brumation is quite a long time, 4 weeks to a few months but it doesnt seem right for him to not eat or drink that whole time, and i feel bad when i try to force him to eat or drink. any other ways i can get his appetite up, and could brumation be another cause of this?
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