Beardie Hiding All Day! Vet Says Too Much Calcium? Please Help!

[BeardieHelp!]

Hello,
I took my Beardie in for a visit to the vet, as she's been spending more and more time in her hide, eating less and pooping less often, and it's really worrying me. She looks normal otherwise and does have better days here and there.

The vet told me as follows (please forgive me if this is worded incorrectly, I'm not familiar with these terms):

• Beardie has a 6-1 Calcium-Phosphorus ratio
• Beardie has 1 elevated liver enzyme, not the other
• Beardie's white blood cell count is a little low

The vet says that, while it sounds counter-intuitive, we should administer her liquid calcium, as she may be trying to make eggs. This doesn't sit right with me, as she's 8 years old, and her x-ray has no evidence of egg development.

When I inquired on brumation, the vet said that it was controversial whether brumation even exists or not in the field of herpetology, and because so, they lean towards no.

I feel the culprit is my Vitamin D3 infused Repta Calcium we've been feeding her working in tandem with her UVB lighting, perhaps making her absorb too much calcium (excess Vitamin D3)? Maybe her liver's having trouble processing all this calcium and/or Vitamin D3?

For context, I'm new to Beardie ownership, and I adopted her around April of this year. Her setup was rather poor, so we were in a bit of a scramble to improve her conditions as soon as possible, and we just kept hearing how important Calcium was with Vitamin D3 over and over, so getting the Vitamin D3-infused calcium powder felt like a no-brainer. Now I'm looking into hypercalcemia, and it's looking like the excess Vitamin D3 might be the culprit.

The vets advice of adding MORE calcium to her diet when she already has too much because she might be trying to develop eggs at 8 years old just doesn't feel right. I'm posting for a second opinion before I relent and give her the calcium or cut back on calcium for a week or so and switch to regular calcium powder.

I just want her to be happy and healthy!

I've attached the full bloodwork and x-ray below if anyone wants to take a look.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[xp29]

Just search for post here about brumation, you'll see pretty quickly they do in fact do so, it sounds to me like maybe your vet don't know much about the specifics of beardies.
How often do you give her the calcium powder? And what type of uvb bulb are you using? If it's the coil/compact type those are garbage, she needs a long tube type or even a mvb would be better (but those have some inherent draw backs). It should be around 24 inches long and placed 12 to 15 inches unobstructed. Also what is her basking temp? An adult needs 95 to 100 degrees and its best to use a digital probe thermometer to measure the temp. The infrared guns can be inaccurate on some materials.
If your lighting isn't on point it will cause issues. Or it could be she is trying to brumate. They don't all or always go down for a deep sleep, my 4 y.o. males has never, he just gets incredibly lazy (even more so than normal lol) and naps around for 5 or 6 weeks. Then back to bobbing at the girls lol.

 

[BeardieHelp!]

Just search for post here about brumation, you'll see pretty quickly they do in fact do so, it sounds to me like maybe your vet don't know much about the specifics of beardies.
How often do you give her the calcium powder? And what type of uvb bulb are you using? If it's the coil/compact type those are garbage, she needs a long tube type or even a mvb would be better (but those have some inherent draw backs). It should be around 24 inches long and placed 12 to 15 inches unobstructed. Also what is her basking temp? An adult needs 95 to 100 degrees and its best to use a digital probe thermometer to measure the temp. The infrared guns can be inaccurate on some materials.
If your lighting isn't on point it will cause issues. Or it could be she is trying to brumate. They don't all or always go down for a deep sleep, my 4 y.o. males has never, he just gets incredibly lazy (even more so than normal lol) and naps around for 5 or 6 weeks. Then back to bobbing at the girls lol.

Yeah, that comment on brumation is part of the reason I'm searching for a second opinion.

Here's my feeding schedule:

• On Sunday, I give her a salad with calcium + vitamin d3 and a multivitamin powder.
• On Monday, I give her a regular salad.
• On Tuesday, I give her 2 superworms and a salad, all mixed with calcium + vitamin d3.
• On Wednesday, I give her a regular salad.
• On Thursday, I give her 2 superworms and a salad, all mixed with calcium + vitamin d3.
• On Friday, I give her a regular salad.
• And on Saturday she also gets a regular salad.

She has a reptisun 10.0 UVB, 34 inch long tube bulb. I'm unsure about what the unobstructed part means, she's got kind of a metal mesh roof that it's attached to. I'll post a photo or two below and you can let me know what you think if you'd like


Currently, her basking temperature is 99.3 currently, though I do use an infrared gun. She's got kind of a plastic basking rock that doubles as a hide. You'll see below.

On brumation, that's one of the reasons I'm considering; although hearing about hearing about her calcium levels have made me worried it's something worse. More often than not, she'll either stuff her head into a nook in her basking rock, or go into the back corner and scratch for a bit and then just sorta chill there all day unless I pull her out. When I can see here eyes, they're wide open, so it doesn't feel like she's napping, even tho I can see her arm all flopped out like if she was.

Do you have any comment on her high calcium levels?

I'll attach a photo of her viv below.

btw, beardie sounds adorable lol

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

 

[AHBD]

I don't see any eggs , I'm leaning toward brumation.

 

[xp29]

I agree, with AHBD.
It looks like your uvb is on top of the screen so not unobstructed, but it also looks like your girl can get really close to it, so it should be ok. The screen blocks alot of the uvb so if on top they need to get closer to it to get adequate uvb.
I'm not sure on the calcium I'll flag someone that can read the charts.
@Drache613

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

It looks like the tank setup is good. Which UVB are you using, what brand?
If you have a T5 tube then she wont need any D3, it can be too much for her
system I agree.
Bearded dragons do brumate & it is very normal behavior for a lot of them. Not
all brumate no, but quite a number of them do.
I don't see any eggs, either but that doesn't mean she isn't developing them. Has
she ever developed them?
For now, I would cut the D3 out completely. Give a couple of weeks or so, off from
giving calcium to help out. Unless you begin to see evidence of egg development.

Tracie

 

[BeardieHelp!]

I agree, with AHBD.
It looks like your uvb is on top of the screen so not unobstructed, but it also looks like your girl can get really close to it, so it should be ok. The screen blocks alot of the uvb so if on top they need to get closer to it to get adequate uvb.
I'm not sure on the calcium I'll flag someone that can read the charts.
@Drache613

Sure thing, although, her basking spot is on the other side of the tank, but I don’t know how I would do it otherwise without one blocking the other. Is this alright? Like, she’s supposed to go on the basking spot which is a little further away from her UVB light than her hammock is. Does this matter, or am I overthinking things? Sometimes she goes on her hammock, but prefers her basking spot (right now tho, she’s been preferring her hide :/).

Thanks for flagging Drache613!

 

[BeardieHelp!]

Hello,

It looks like the tank setup is good. Which UVB are you using, what brand?
If you have a T5 tube then she wont need any D3, it can be too much for her
system I agree.
Bearded dragons do brumate & it is very normal behavior for a lot of them. Not
all brumate no, but quite a number of them do.
I don't see any eggs, either but that doesn't mean she isn't developing them. Has
she ever developed them?
For now, I would cut the D3 out completely. Give a couple of weeks or so, off from
giving calcium to help out. Unless you begin to see evidence of egg development.

Tracie

Thanks! Right now I’m using a Reptisun T5 H0, 34 inch, 39 watt bulb. I’ve heard good things about reptisun. Is this a good bulb?

Okay, I’ll switch to regular calcium powder.

Is it regular for them to be brumating for so long, though? She’s been using her hide excessively since late April. By pulling her out to eat and give her some time under the UVB/basking light am I interrupting/prolonging this process? Should I leave her alone? I’m just really worried about doing so and unknowingly allow her to pass away. I’d be heartbroken and I don’t know if I could forgive myself. She’s absolutely beautiful and such a personality when she’s not hiding away all day.

About the eggs, I’ve just asked the previous owner, and apparently she did at around a year old. An old family friend also used to have a bearded dragon who laid eggs very late into her life, so I suppose it is possible. In a follow up call, the vet told me that the excess calcium could be due to her allowing calcium into her bloodstream to form eggs. The vet also told me that they can be more likely to lay eggs if they feel they’re in a safe environment to do so. Her previous vivarium was in a very sorry state before I did what you see above in my photos. Perhaps the improvement in conditions is making her comfortable enough to make eggs again?

Sorry, I’m just very concerned for her and I’m hearing completely different solutions, between reducing her calcium intake so that her blood returns to normal, or giving her prescribed calcium liquid daily for a few weeks to allow her enough calcium to comfortably lay eggs, or just leaving her alone and allowing her to brumate.

Should I do as you say and lay off calcium for a couple weeks, and administer it if she’s not showing signs of improving? Or should I administer it sooner to make sure egg formation won’t harm her?

I’m just at a loss.

Thanks for all your time and knowledge.

 

[BeardieHelp!]

I don't see any eggs , I'm leaning toward brumation.

Thanks for your input!

 

[AHBD]

You're welcome. A vet that doesn't believe in brumation doesn't know about beardies or other reptiles. Even if yours isn't brumating there are many thousands that do every year in captivity as well as in the wild. Every dragon I've owned in the past 25 years has brumated and my 2 ten year olds are doing so now for the past 2 + months. Others here on the forum also have dragons that brumate.
I'm not sure what to say about the calcium levels, maybe reduce it a bit but not cut it out altogether.

 

[BeardieHelp!]

Just got another call from the vet saying that there's one slight enlargement on the x-ray that indicates a possible tumour? She's saying more x-rays/ultrasound may be necessary, but the last visit was definitely not cheap.

The bloodwork was looked at by another specialist who said that the calcium levels, while elevated, were not especially so.

More questions, more costs x.x

 

[AHBD]

I feel for you, when you hear the word tumor you don't want to make a mistake about diagnosis. If you feel comfortable with this vet you night opt for the tests, you could also look for a highly rated reptile vet for a second opinion.

 

[BeardieHelp!]

I feel for you, when you hear the word tumor you don't want to make a mistake about diagnosis. If you feel comfortable with this vet you night opt for the tests, you could also look for a highly rated reptile vet for a second opinion.

Yeah, it's just difficult to afford so many different tests, and frustrating when I can't seem to get a straight answer from any of the ones so far, especially when the requests are coming from a vet that's disputing the existence of brumation, which seems to come as a fact of reptile life from everywhere else I'm reading/hearing. It's very distressing and kinda paralysing my ability to proper care for her because I have no clue what to do.

Vet also says that the vitamin d3 can't be the issue.

 

[AHBD]

One thing that seems to be present when a beardie has a tumor in the abdomen is extremely high glucose levels on their blood tests.