Beardie Fear/Anxiety/Stress, Grimace Scale

[zaboomafoo]

Hi all, this might be a bit of an unconventional question so I apologize if this isn't the right forum for it.

I'm currently a veterinary technician student, and something I've encountered so far in my education is a lack of information about our reptile friends. In many of my classes, we've discussed the "Fear/Anxiety/Stress" scale- or "FAS". This is a technique used to evaluate an animal's body language (usually in the context of a vet visit). We have FAS scales for cats and dogs, but not other animals.

We've also learned about "grimace scales", which are a way to evaluate pain based on facial expressions of animals. The grimace scales include a few more animals, like rodents and rabbits, but it's still hard to find information about evaluating pain and stress in our reptile friends.

I'm a beardie lover, and even though they can't exactly make facial expressions the same way a mammal does, I know how expressive they can be. This is where you all come in! I would love to pick all of your brains for ideas of what sort of body language I could highlight in an FAS or grimace scale for bearded dragons. I have some obvious ideas bouncing around my head such as beards changing color, closing eyes as a stress response, etc... but I'd love to know what sort of patterns you all have noticed in your own dragons, especially if you've ever had the unfortunate experience of seeing them in pain or stress. I'll include some examples of existing FAS and grimace scales to give you all an idea of what I'm talking about. I really like the idea of putting together something like this for our beardie friends as a resource for both veterinary professionals and bearded dragon owners, to help make sure they get speedier and more accurate care and pain management.

Thanks for anyone who's read this far and thanks in advance for any thoughts you have to share!
KC

 

[MollyM]

That is sooo interesting !! As a new beardie owner I am still learning, but will post if something comes to mind !

 

[ChileanTaco]

Thank you very much Sadly so often reptiles are considered as having no emotions, but they clearly show and have.
I cannot help much, I think, as my bearded dragon never has experienced pain or intense stress. However, I could add - if you're interested - on e.g.:
- dragon appears to be skeptic
- dragon "lost his nerves" after watching something going on he doesn't like
- dragon decides to flee (from unusual object)
- dragon is irritated during shedding
- dragon for a moment does not like being touched or similar which he normally likes.

 

[zaboomafoo]

Thank you very much Sadly so often reptiles are considered as having no emotions, but they clearly show and have.
I cannot help much, I think, as my bearded dragon never has experienced pain or intense stress. However, I could add - if you're interested - on e.g.:
- dragon appears to be skeptic
- dragon "lost his nerves" after watching something going on he doesn't like
- dragon decides to flee (from unusual object)
- dragon is irritated during shedding
- dragon for a moment does not like being touched or similar which he normally likes.

Thank you! These are some great ideas. Can you tell me a little more about what you see when they do not like being touched? Is there anything your dragon does in specific that helps you know he is not enjoying being touched?

 

[xp29]

One sign is lowering their boby and especially their head. It looks like they are ducking but not away just low and parallel to the floor. It's a sign of uncertainty.
Black rings on their belly is stress.
Pancaking and turning up sideway with or without gaping is a warning to back off, also uncertainty/low trust.
Refusing to pick up their head, sunken eyes, lethargy all signs of illness and pain.

 

[zaboomafoo]

One sign is lowering their boby and especially their head. It looks like they are ducking but not away just low and parallel to the floor. It's a sign of uncertainty.
Black rings on their belly is stress.
Pancaking and turning up sideway with or without gaping is a warning to back off, also uncertainty/low trust.
Refusing to pick up their head, sunken eyes, lethargy all signs of illness and pain.

Thank you, these are awesome examples- exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. For the two you mentioned that are signals of uncertainty, do you feel like either is more severe/escalated than the other? In your experience, would a bearded dragon start with lowering their body, then step it up to pancaking if the threat doesn't back off? Or the other way around? Or totally separate with no relation?

 

[xp29]

Thank you, these are awesome examples- exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. For the two you mentioned that are signals of uncertainty, do you feel like either is more severe/escalated than the other? In your experience, would a bearded dragon start with lowering their body, then step it up to pancaking if the threat doesn't back off? Or the other way around? Or totally separate with no relation?

No more like you stated. They'll lower in uncertainty and watch, they will either decide things are ok and return to normal or if approached may flare and pancake. At that point it is bacoming a warning to leave them alone. They may start to hiss at this point also. It's rare that they will actually bite.

 

[ChileanTaco]

Thank you! These are some great ideas. Can you tell me a little more about what you see when they do not like being touched? Is there anything your dragon does in specific that helps you know he is not enjoying being touched?

I agree fully on what xp29 wrote.
To add:

- dragon appears to be skeptic
What xp29 wrote (he called it "uncertain")

- dragon "lost his nerves" after watching something going on he doesn't like
My husband (with whom my dragon didn't bond well at that time) had to do some work in the enclosure (why I didn't do so was because it was more practical my husband did the work - he has longer arms ). My dragon Taco watched him from a distance (opposite site of the enclosure). After a while, the dragon flattened its body like when pancaking but even flatter, tilted the flattened body towards my husband and opened his mouth, beard expanded.
Looked to me like Taco was watching what was going on, and finally "had enough".
It was the only instance my dragon ever showed such a behavior. It was exactly what also xp29 describes:

Pancaking and turning up sideway with or without gaping is a warning to back off, also uncertainty/low trust.

you asked:

In your experience, would a bearded dragon start with lowering their body, then step it up to pancaking if the threat doesn't back off?

Taco only did this once, and when he did so, it was extremely sudden and quick. It was for approx. 2 seconds, then back to normal body shape. I think that especially that sudden (!) transformation, not only the transformation of body shape, should surprise the threat to go away. There was no lowering of the body as described by xp29. I was standing nearby so I observed everything. My husband, looking at the other side of the enclosure doing his work, hadn't noticed a thing.

- dragon decides to flee (from unusual object)
Taco on my hand as he run into the kitchen (he is allowed to be on the floor when the kitchen is not used) and now had to go back into his enclosure. Zero problems with doing so. However, on the way back we had to pass the Christmas tree. Taco, on my hand, moved his body away (like in the human expression "eh, what's going on?!" shown comic-style). Then, he suddenly jumped down, really attempting to flee from that thing. (I then recognized that his way into the kitchen was likely okay for him - he walked in that direction on his own - as the Christmas tree, a small one sitting on a piece of furniture was not in his immediate field of view when he was on the floor. When I carried him, however, it was.)

- dragon is irritated during shedding
stress marks, hiding more

- dragon for a moment does not like being touched or similar which he normally likes
Eyes are closed for 1 - 2 seconds. Can also be just the eye on the side of his body that is touched.
This is a reaction to me when he sometimes doesn't like to be pet - he normally likes. (And it's also fine if he sometimes doesn't like.)
We never had the situation I had to touch a body part that probably would hurt.
To add: Same reaction if he does not like more food when hand feeding, or just no food at all. Taco is not wolfing down as many insects as he could get, but when he has enough either goes away, or when he likes to sit at that spot, closes his eyes briefly.

 

[Ksandefer94]

Thank you very much Sadly so often reptiles are considered as having no emotions, but they clearly show and have.
I cannot help much, I think, as my bearded dragon never has experienced pain or intense stress. However, I could add - if you're interested - on e.g.:
- dragon appears to be skeptic
- dragon "lost his nerves" after watching something going on he doesn't like
- dragon decides to flee (from unusual object)
- dragon is irritated during shedding
- dragon for a moment does not like being touched or similar which he normally likes.

So one of my baby’s can get lowkey freaked out by the spray bottle when I drip it infront of her to feed her some water…has anyone else experienced this ? She climbed on it but when it drips and she notices it she will kind of back up like “ woah hold on “

 

[ChileanTaco]

When smaller, mine was okay with the spray bottle and drank water dropped on his snout.
Now he doesn't do so anymore (since he was older than a year) - poop is well hydrated, so he doesn't need to drink, and he does not do so. When I water/ spray his live plants and a bit the sand, he backs off. Not freaked out, but not wanting to get wet.
Otherwise, my now almost 2 year old dragon is a very relaxed guy, hardly bothered by something. When he was younger, he was e.g. skeptic regarding my husband (who did not interact with him very much for the first months and didn't like reptiles by then), or had a fear of some common household things/chores (he feared e.g. sweeping, clothes on a clothesline and generally clothes who are not on people - I guess these are things many young pets fear).

 

[Ksandefer94]

When smaller, mine was okay with the spray bottle and drank water dropped on his snout.
Now he doesn't do so anymore (since he was older than a year) - poop is well hydrated, so he doesn't need to drink, and he does not do so. When I water/ spray his live plants and a bit the sand, he backs off. Not freaked out, but not wanting to get wet.
Otherwise, my now almost 2 year old dragon is a very relaxed guy, hardly bothered by something. When he was younger, he was e.g. skeptic regarding my husband (who did not interact with him very much for the first months and didn't like reptiles by then), or had a fear of some common household things/chores (he feared e.g. sweeping, clothes on a clothesline and generally clothes who are not on people - I guess these are things many young pets fear).

Hmm thats interesting . But I agree, I think where they are babies it’s more of a curiosity type, freaked out . Love getting to know them . See they love when my wife comes in to see them I think it’s because she’s around less then I am and they’re like “ new person yay ! “

I do notice when I hang out with them they seem a lot less stressed out . I like to give them there alone time but mine at least, seem to be very sociable .

 

[Sue E.]

I quit spraying Kai because he hated it. I tried the eyedropper of water where you drip water on their nose, a drop at a time, like some folks do, with mixed results. One of our other members, @OctoberSky37 , drips drops of water from her fingers onto the tip of her beardies nose and this worked really well with Kai too!

 

[Sue E.]

Oh yeah, sometimes when they close their eyes, like when you drip the water, or turn their heads away, they are "saying", "No thank you, not now".

 

[OctoberSky37]

Atticus has become quite the member of our home. We all love him very much.

 

[Ksandefer94]

I quit spraying Kai because he hated it. I tried the eyedropper of water where you drip water on their nose, a drop at a time, like some folks do, with mixed results. One of our other members, @OctoberSky37 , drips drops of water from her fingers onto the tip of her beardies nose and this worked really well with Kai too!

Yes the spraying my hands and letting it drip from my fingers or letting it puddle up in my palm was working with v.i.p really good . Charmander though, not so much . We made progress today though . Spent a lot of time hydrating her today she ate some veggies and drank a little bit so I guess she’s getting somewhere . Her energy level has improved today so it’s a work in progress . I’m determined to get her where I want her to be within a day or two . When she is awake tomorrow I will post some videos to show her progress to you all .