Adenovirus Question

[Katie007]

Hey Tracie,
I think, now that I know Norbert is negative, what Im concerned about is getting another dragon. I always planned on getting a second, and I would definitely quarantine the new one and not let it come in contact with any of the same surfaces until it has been tested for Adeno and parasites, but is that enough? I'd rather not get a second if it meant putting Norbert in danger.

I also read something about the virus possibly being airborne, that isn't true right? It seems like there is so much mixed information.
And if I were to get a second dragon would I be better off sticking to the same breeder because I already have a negative dragon from them?
Also, I am planning on trying to build my own stackable vivs. Could the virus spread from one dragon to another in that type of set-up?

Thank you for helping me be a little less confused! lol

 

[Drache613]

Hello Katie,

Let me know if you have more questions.
The virus is not really known to be airborne, but it is not a good idea of course, to house them together.
Common sense & cleanliness will help keep it from spreading if housing a negative & a positive in the house but not necessarily in the same tank.


Tracie

 

[Kalyn876]

I will definitely get Hoodoo and Tyrus retested in February, that will be a year from the last test. Fingers crossed that Hoodoo is still negative and I can always hope that Tyrus isn't positive anymore

I just wanted to let everyone know that the only difference in health between my two boys so far is their Urate, Hoodoo's is always nice and white whereas Tyrus' always has a bit of yellowish chalky urate. And Tyrus drinks twice as much water as Hoodoo, it's crazy! Maybe an affect of Adeno? I'm not really sure..

Either way they are both very happy healthy boys, no parasites even YAY! :wink:

 

[XtinaBeardieMom]

I also remembered seeing something on Daichu's website (the breeder I purchased Norbert from) about Adenovirus. I went and checked and it said this:
"Our breeders and currently available dragons have not been tested for adenovirus. Adenovirus is believed to be present in many/most bearded dragons, including ours. For those of you who wish to test - a positive tested animal may be returned to us within 6 weeks and a refund issued for the purchase price. *We do not refund shipping fees or testing costs."

So here's my question. They said that the virus is present in most bearded dragons. How true is that? I wasn't under the assumption that it was so common, and the phrase "including ours" makes me nervous. Is Adenovirus as likely as they're making it seem?

Edit:

I don't know if this is appropriate to say or not...but I'm really getting worried. I was searching though different forums and found out that Daichu has been getting a bad reputation for knowingly selling Adenovirus positive beardies. Does anyone know anything about this?

Hey Katie,

I'm glad you decided to get Norbert tested - and congrats on the negative result! Thank you also for participating in the Adenovirus research effort & releasing your results to Tracie so maybe we can help other future beardies through her studies.

As for Daichu, I'm no expert but I personally would not buy from them based on their claims concerning Adenovirus. I am aware of their reputation on other forums as you say, but I'm basing my opinion soley off the fact that their statements sound so shady. Why would they refund or replace a dragon who tests positive for Adenovirus if it's so normal amongst "many/most" bearded dragons in general? It comes across to me like they're just trying to get away with the very bare minimum of health assurance for the dragons they sell. And no, I don't believe that most beardies have it - but even if that were the case, that wouldn't make it alright to knowingly breed and sell dragons who have it! In my opinion, you are lucky that Norbert is as healthy as he is. Rest assured though that he is definitely one happy, healthy, handsome beardie who loves his mama!! I just think we should all have higher expectations of breeders, including Adenovirus testing standards (there's only ONE breeder I know of who does regular Adenovirus testing & guarantees negative results, but she's in Canada!) and pre-cautions to reduce inbreeding and value genetic quality over pretty colors.

 

[Katie007]

Thank you! Tracie actually told me after the fact that she was surprised by Norbert's negative results, because there have been a lot of positives from Daichu. Im definitely going to get him re-tested after 3 months has past, just to be sure. I think if I would have been more educated when I first was looking for a breeder I wouldn't have went with Daichu. At the time I didn't really know/understand what Adeno was, and the effects it could have on my dragon. Now, after more research, and endless searching on different forums, I see that Daichu, along with some other big breeders, all share the same stance on Adeno testing and preventing the spread of the virus. After I get Norbert re-tested, and if he is still negative (Tracie mentioned the importance of re-testing because he might not have been shedding the virus at the time), I plan on getting a second beardie from a smaller breeder. I wish there was one in the US that tested for Adeno! I'd be willing to pay twice the price if it meant the beardie was certain not to have it.

Im just hoping that Norbert didn't get a false negative, but I honestly think he's fine. He's been growing like a weed and has been overall really healthy and happy. I think if he did have it since hatching he wouldn't be thriving like he is.

 

[pscaulkins]

Unfortunately, false negatives are very common, especially with Tracie's testing method. If they are shedding the virus, it's going to be negative. But a positive dragon is NOT a sick dragon. There is no set symptoms to the adenovirus. Most people never know their dragon is positive for it. (Tracie, I am not putting your testing method down, you have the easiest and least expensive method, just not as accurate as the PCR testing they did years ago)

 

[Katie007]

I've read that dragons who've had Adeno from hatching never really thrive. That isn't true? And I guess I can just hope that his was a real negative until I get him re-tested in about 2 months.

 

[XtinaBeardieMom]

If they are shedding the virus, it's going to be negative. (Tracie, I am not putting your testing method down, you have the easiest and least expensive method, just not as accurate as the PCR testing they did years ago)

I'm kind of confused... Tracie's testing method IS a PCR test, correct? So what's the difference? Also, as far as I know - it hasn't even been proven whether bearded dragons even can shed the virus. Where is there information proving otherwise? What does "shedding a virus" even mean anyway?? I honestly have no idea. By the way pscaulkins, I am by no means attempting to argue what you're saying... just asking questions. I don't have near enough information for my opinions on the matter to be set in stone or anything. Thanks for your help!

 

[Katie007]

If they are shedding the virus, it's going to be negative. (Tracie, I am not putting your testing method down, you have the easiest and least expensive method, just not as accurate as the PCR testing they did years ago)

I'm kind of confused... Tracie's testing method IS a PCR test, correct? So what's the difference? Also, as far as I know - it hasn't even been proven whether bearded dragons even can shed the virus. Where is there information proving otherwise? What does "shedding a virus" even mean anyway?? I honestly have no idea. By the way pscaulkins, I am by no means attempting to argue what you're saying... just asking questions. I don't have near enough information for my opinions on the matter to be set in stone or anything. Thanks for your help!

Now that you mention is, that confuses me too. I just looked on the pats website and it is PCR testing. pscaulkins, did you mean not as accurate as older tests?

And I think "shedding" the virus means kind of like the virus is active at the time, versus dormant? I found this on wiki...though its a little confusing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_shedding

Tracie assured me that the test is very accurate, but that occasionally false negatives do happen because of this not "shedding" the virus stuff. Im just really hoping my Norbert got a true negative!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Great thread.
Sandy, we no longer use the Fecal EM testing. We use the PCR testing method, it is much better.
I am getting very close to obtaining more information on the shedding aspect, which is very exciting. It is nice that some people have finally agreed to re-test for me, to prove that Adeno negative does exists & that a dragon doesn't just all of the sudden develop it & test positive for it.
We have two adeno negative dragons who are definitely negative. They have been tested 5 times, so I can guarantee that they are negative.

The testing has come a long way in the last few years!

Tracie

 

[Katie007]

Hey Tracie,

I was wondering, would it be ok to have Norbert re-tested in 2 months instead of 3, or is the minimum 3 months? Im only asking because the end of August will make a little over 2 months, and in September I need to take Norbert in for a check up at the vet and buy his new Reptisun, so I'll be a little low on cash. I suppose I could wait until October, but I really want to get him re-tested.

Is there a certain length of time that a dragon won't shed the virus, then start? Or could they have it for years before they start shedding it?
Just curious.

 

[pscaulkins]

Tracie, isn't your test only environmental? Correct me if I am wrong. The way PCR was done years ago was at a vets swabbing the inside of the vent costing lots of money. I haven't stayed up on it as I am not a breeder and not planning on getting any more dragons.

To answer a question above Tracie's last post, yes, a positive dragon at hatchling can thrive and a lot do thrive. A positive dragon doesn't mean a sickly one by any means. A positive dragon can have healthy hatchlings til the 3rd or 4th clutch. I doubt that has changed. I have two 7 y/o positive dragons. I know of negative dragons only living to 7-8 y/o. I do not consider mine sickly. One of my positive dragons lowered a 50 count coccidia fecal all by herself with no meds when she was less then a year old. The trick is no meds. Antibiotics lower a healthy immune system, can you imagine what they do to one that is a bit compromised. Then again maybe mine had a false positive test through the em fecal way. :dontknow:

 

[Katie007]

I thought the only way you could be positive either way about Adeno was to retest?
And about the antibiotics, you're saying you should never give an Adeno positive dragon antibiotics? I know what you mean about lowering the immune system, but how can you get around using antibiotics if its really needed? Im only asking just incase mine does end up positive so I can take the right precautions.

After what you said about your Adeno positive, healthy 7 year olds, I feel a lot better. I think all this time I've been thinking of Adeno as an eventual death sentence, I didn't really realize they could live out a healthy life with it.

Are there any other precautions you take, or anything special you do with your positive dragons to keep them healthy?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

No, this test can do environmental or fecal swab. Doing a direct swab onto the stool will give a stronger result than swabbing the environment.
Sandy you really should have retested, as that would have helped with research purposes. There really is no difference in swabbing the vent or swabbing the stool directly other than it being less invasive & less expensive.
The virus has shown several similarities in symptoms from calcium absorption issues to coccidia problems.
I agree, medication does lower the immune system & I usually recommend against the use them in most cases.
There are varying degrees of adeno & it affects the dragons in different manner depending on the genetics & immune system of the dragon.
The whole point of this was to get breeders to test & to help improve the stock.
Adeno is not always a death sentence by all means. However, I don't think positive dragons should be bred though, unless the virus is shed out.


Tracie

 

[chickcasa]

I've really enjoyed this thread. I haven't been following much online as far as beardies for a few years, and it's nice to see more testing is going on. I think, a few years ago, that a lot of the concern about adenovirus stemmed from the fact that the vast majority of dragons who were tested for it were very sick or had already died. This made it look like adeno was a death sentence. As more testing has happened and more has become known, it is giving us more information that shows that only some dragons with adeno become ill. I suspect most dragons who become very ill, it is due to secondary infections during active periods of adeno infection.

I also would like to point out that I don't believe anyone said that ALL dragons have the virus. Daichu's statement says they believe that *many/most* have it, and it sounds as though further testing is going to be required to see whether or not this is true. Given that I agree with this belief, and current research does not disprove it, I have no problem with Daichu's policy in not testing their dragons. They simply make this known for people who are more concerned about adeno than they are. That is their right, and should not be vilified, particularly given the continued lack of convincing evidence that there is anything inherently unhealthy about most adeno positive dragons.

~Katy