A bunch of random symptoms, the vet is lost

Lainezor

Member
Beardie name(s)
Darius
Hey guys, I have an 11 year old bearded dragon named Darius. He has been to the vet several times this year and most recently 2 months ago because I am always watching him and worrying about him. He has a few random issues 1-a small "sore" next to his eye that sort of looks like a wart but has not changed at all over time. 2-He will randomly bulge his eyes way out of his head and it looks freaky, he will do it for short periods very sporadically. 3- He has random muscle twitches fairly frequently, his beard will twitch, sides of the mouth, thighs, back and belly. 4- His head will "tremor" which seems like hes vibrating it. It will come and go and seems to be when hes holding his neck in certain positions, the vet said that he doesnt think its MBD but we did test calcium and give a calcium shot. 5-on and off constipation (not going for a week or more) with loose stools, sometimes with yellowy mucus been treating with metronidazole, despite negative fecal tests. 6-He does a weird breathing thing that almost looks like an URI but the vet says his lungs are clear and there is no mucus in the nose or excess saliva (it almost looks like hes huffing / forcing air out and his tongue will twitch subtly (will include a video of this). 7-a lump on his chest / some scales on his belly / beard are dark. Vet said the lump is in the skin and that its not yellow fungus and to scrub with a Betadine solution twice a week but that has not had any effect. 8-He walks weird now almost as if he is off balance or drunk, vet said it could be some sort of mass on the brain but theres no way to test for that? 9-shedding takes forever and only sheds in tiny spots at a time. 10-he seems to lose weight whenever he stops the metronidazole. 11-his mouth is pale sometimes but he is not anemic.

Some of those issues have been happening on and off for years and I noticed it during covid lockdowns as I was home all day and staring at him more (lol).

We have been giving him metronidazole on and off for several months which does seem to help with the poops and weight lost. He was giving a vitamin B injection and a calcium injection in September. The vet told me to consider giving more vitamin A but that he doesnt do injections anymore due to risk of overdose. I have been giving a carrot to the crickets more regularly.

Two weeks ago was the last visit where we noticed he had lost a lot of weight (about 20g in two weeks since his last visit)and had very gross poops, we did a follow up test of bloodwork and CBC as well as tested a fresh poop for parasites. He said there is no way for him to see if he has a mass on his brain because there is no tiny reptile MRI equipment and that i would have to travel to a city that is several hours away to have them test. Its been very bad weather and last vet trip was hell due to the heavy snowfall. My car isnt great in the snow and I dont want to have to keep bringing him to the vet because its a long drive and it puts stress on him which i am sure doesnt help. I am willing to seek another vet if needed but the closest is many hours drive away. I do trust the current vets opinion but it seems hes at a loss for what to do now and i dont have an actual answer on what is wrong.

The vet said that his calcium was at the "low end of normal "(8.42 vs the 8.6-18 normal) and his phosphorous was also low (2.17 vs the 2.1-10.6 normal range). the bloodwork showed he is not anemic and there is "no evidence of infection". He said the liver and everything else is normal.

He took his last dose of metronidazole this morning and it does appear to have helped him gain 13 grams back and he has pooped yesterday and today and it looks a fair bit better (still kinda mushy) .

I took a video of him doing the weird breathing thing this morning:
is this normal thermoregulation and im being paranoid or is something off about it? He does this on and off regularly for at least the last year.

Also including some photos of his dark scales / lump on his chest:

1734368216909.jpeg


1734368242908.jpeg


Sorry for the long message but I worry a lot about my old man and want to make sure hes getting the best care possible especially at his age.
 

KarrieRee

BD.org Sicko
Beardie name(s)
Hiccup he is 6 and Blaze is 5
Please go over all the lighting in the tank --- surface basking temps and how your getting them? No stick ons please-- UVB long tube or coil? Coils are no good--------- I see shed that hasnt come off yet -- the video looks like hes adjusting his body temp- how much calcium is he getting? Lets start there - I am also flagging your post to Tracie the vet tech on the board-- the eye bulging could be shed coming on around the eyes that is normal
@Drache613
 

Lainezor

Member
Original Poster
Beardie name(s)
Darius
Please go over all the lighting in the tank --- surface basking temps and how your getting them? No stick ons please-- UVB long tube or coil? Coils are no good--------- I see shed that hasnt come off yet -- the video looks like hes adjusting his body temp- how much calcium is he getting? Lets start there - I am also flagging your post to Tracie the vet tech on the board-- the eye bulging could be shed coming on around the eyes that is normal
@Drache613
He has a arcadia dragon 14% UVB t5 tube bulb that is now mounted inside the cage, I use a solar meter to get the UVB at basking spaces to be between 3-5. His tank is 56" wide so I have two 22" jungle dawn LED strips (for bright light and plant growth) on top of the screen. For the heat he has the zoo med repti-baskng spot lamp (two of them, both 100W). In 2022 he was showing signs of MBD so I upgraded everything and got a solar meter. (Recent photos of the enclosure on my profile)

Temps in the cold end are 75-80F and the hot end is 90-92F(ambient air). The basking spots are 95-100F and 105-110F (he seems to like going back and fourth between the two spots one on the rock and one on top of a cork tube)I have a zoo med thermometer/humidity gauge in the hot end and I test everything regularly with a temperature gun(one they use for automotive with a laser).

Until recently he was staying mostly in the cool end in minimal UVB. He would even hide inside his cork tube for days and not get any uvb at all. Since I've been giving the metronidazole hes been basking again normally, thankfully. The UVB levels are great, if he would actually stand in the right spots. Luckily the last week hes been spending much more time basking. I have spend countless hours researching reptile lighting and am confident the setup is correct now.

I've been trying to offer more variety of greens as I noticed for a bit there was times where i fed too much kale or the same veggie everyday for a week at a time. I also am giving the crickets repashy superload to help fill in any gaps with my gutloading.

He is shedding in tiny pieces at a time, last week it was his nostrils / lips and now its part of the beard and looks like the rest of the body wants to shed. I know they shed less often as they age but it does seem to take him a long time to shed now and its in little sections.

I switched multivitamins to now include repashy calcium plus lod once a week and the rest of the week is plain calcium with no D3. I think this has helped with the head tremors a bit as they are less noticeable now.
 

Lainezor

Member
Original Poster
Beardie name(s)
Darius
1734400916417.jpg

here is the most recent copy of the bloodwork, not sure about reference values but vet called this "fairly normal"
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, you've been taking pretty good care of your guy for him to live to 11 so hope gets a few more ! I'll wait for Drache613 to comment on the bloodwork but I did want to mention a few things. You should stop the metronidazole [ Flagyl ] , all meds. can cause side effects including this one some of which are nausea , diarrhea, loss of muscle control, tremors, etc. The vet should not have prescribed it since the fecal was clean. So most of these symptoms may have been caused by or are being increased by using it.
Beardies [ esp. older ones ] will often not poo for a week or more, it's normal. You can add a little more squash to his diet and canned pumpkin [ w/out spices ] .
His belly has a little bit of slightly damaged scales but it's not anything that is harmful. Hope Darius feels better soon !
 

Lainezor

Member
Original Poster
Beardie name(s)
Darius
Hi there, you've been taking pretty good care of your guy for him to live to 11 so hope gets a few more ! I'll wait for Drache613 to comment on the bloodwork but I did want to mention a few things. You should stop the metronidazole [ Flagyl ] , all meds. can cause side effects including this one some of which are nausea , diarrhea, loss of muscle control, tremors, etc. The vet should not have prescribed it since the fecal was clean. So most of these symptoms may have been caused by or are being increased by using it.
Beardies [ esp. older ones ] will often not poo for a week or more, it's normal. You can add a little more squash to his diet and canned pumpkin [ w/out spices ] .
His belly has a little bit of slightly damaged scales but it's not anything that is harmful. Hope Darius feels better soon !
Thanks, I do try my best to stay up to date with the best husbandry practices. I hope he lives for several more years but I dont want to be selfish.

Today was the last day of the medication, at the time he lost 30 grams in 2 weeks, had mucus covered poops and was lethargic / staying in the cool end. It does seem to have helped him go back to 493grams (he dropped down to 477g from 500g)

does the squash have to be cooked? can i feed it to the crickets or does it have to be to him directly? he can be a picky eater and generally only eats green things like escarole and collards for example.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
You can feed a small raw piece to the crickets but check it the next day because it can go bad quickly unlike potato or carrot. You can cook it or feed it raw and grated to Darius . It's good that he likes greens, they are full of nutrients and moisture.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

How is Darius doing tonight? The blood work doesn't look too bad, really. There doesn't seem to be
infection going on. Did they not do calcium levels or uric acid levels?
The Arcadia D3 14% tube bulb is a terrific bulb so he should be getting great UVB light exposure,
especially since you have mounted it inside of the tank.
That's good he is done with the medication, it was most likely hard on his system especially since his
fecal exam was clean. I would consider giving a probiotic just to help out his system after the meds.
It sounds like the addition of the calcium supplementation along with the UVB lighting has helped out
with his head tremor. Hopefully that will continue to improve for him.
Please keep us updated on him. I hope he has many more years with you. He has done excellent
with you!

Tracie
 

Lainezor

Member
Original Poster
Beardie name(s)
Darius
Hello,

How is Darius doing tonight? The blood work doesn't look too bad, really. There doesn't seem to be
infection going on. Did they not do calcium levels or uric acid levels?
The Arcadia D3 14% tube bulb is a terrific bulb so he should be getting great UVB light exposure,
especially since you have mounted it inside of the tank.
That's good he is done with the medication, it was most likely hard on his system especially since his
fecal exam was clean. I would consider giving a probiotic just to help out his system after the meds.
It sounds like the addition of the calcium supplementation along with the UVB lighting has helped out
with his head tremor. Hopefully that will continue to improve for him.
Please keep us updated on him. I hope he has many more years with you. He has done excellent
with you!

Tracie
Hi Tracie,

Darius seems to be doing better in a few ways but also worse in others.

The vet did check the calcium levels and said they were on the low end of normal and that phosphorus levels were low too.

This is what the vet said in an email " Fecal was negative and the blood work was fairly normal. As the blood work goes, he is not anemic and there is no evidence of infection. his phosphorus and calcium levels were on the low end of normal. Phosphorus 2.17 (2.1-10.6 normal range) Calcium 8.42 (8.6-18 normal range). The calcium level was low end of normal but shouldn't be causing the tremors. Finally, liver is normal. Going forward, I do have a concern that the weight loss is due to an intestinal issue (malabsorption, mass etc) keep me informed and especially if you have noticed that the metronidazole has helped him"

He is not doing the tremors nearly as badly now, it seems almost gone, thankfully. He is still doing the "weird breathing thing" which I will show in video. He seems to do this most mornings after eating for a while (for 10 mins to an hour or so). I dont know if this is normal or not but it looks awkward and uncomfortable. I am guessing he does it to help move the food down his body? He stops after a bit and usually poops, sometimes seeming to strain. There have been clean fecal tests every few months but have been giving metronidazole fairly often to help keep weight on him and if i stop it he seems to get watery poops.

He is not sleeping during the day much anymore which is nice, he may close his eyes but will open them and look at me so i know he is alert. his colour is better overall and hes spending more time in the basking zones / hot end now which is great! I am still concerned about the random muscles twitching like this morning it did it on the corners of the mouth.

He has a voracious appetite and eats as if he is starving, he will rather aggressively rip the greens from my hands now instead of me having to coerce him into eating.

Overall I would say theres been some great improvements, he is back up to 493g (went down to 477) and he is less dark, basking more and more alert.

But hes still got me super concerned about the random full body breathing, small lump / dark scales on his chest and random twitching in his muscles.

I have never given him a probiotic before, i didnt even know that was a thing for reptiles, is there any particular brand that you'd recommend?

I appreciate your time and guidance.
 

Lainezor

Member
Original Poster
Beardie name(s)
Darius

Here is a video from this morning of him doing the "weird breathing thing" that keeps freaking me out, he does it for awhile after eating on most days. He has been seen by the vet many times who says his lungs are clear and he doesnt make any noises while doing it, there is no mucus or excess saliva or anything either.

I may be paranoid but it scares me to see him doing this and having no way of helping him (im assuming he is distressed cuz the beard and tip of tail turn darker than usual, not fully black though)

I thought he was doing it because he hated the taste of the meds but his last dose was on Monday and today he ate a big handful of collard greens (I have to hand feed him cuz hes spoiled lol)

He will sometimes do this for a few minutes or up to an hour or so, some days he doesnt seem to do it at all, or i didnt notice it. Sometimes he will poop right after and go back to normal.

For the last couple years hes been pretty lazy and now that hes running around and head bobbing and all this its a weird change for my old dragon.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Yes, you can use a non dairy probiotic for him to help balance out his system. You can try a non dairy
acidophiluz, or a non dairy organic soy yogurt.
I'm glad to hear he has gained some weight back. At least he is eating on his own & has a great appetite now. Thankfully his meds are done too.
If his calcium levels are on the low normal levels you could consider getting him on some liquid calcium.
Sometimes when they get older, they can have a harder time absorbing their calcium. The liquid is usually
absorbed more easily than a powdered supplement.
Since they don't feel he has any respiratory issues, his breathing behavior must be something else. Have
you double checked his temperatures to be sure he isn't too hot or that he is warm enough?
I hope his tremors continue to reduce in frequency also.

Keep us posted on how he is doing.
Tracie
 

Lainezor

Member
Original Poster
Beardie name(s)
Darius
Hello,

Yes, you can use a non dairy probiotic for him to help balance out his system. You can try a non dairy
acidophilus, or a non dairy organic soy yogurt.
I'm glad to hear he has gained some weight back. At least he is eating on his own & has a great appetite now. Thankfully his meds are done too.
If his calcium levels are on the low normal levels you could consider getting him on some liquid calcium.
Sometimes when they get older, they can have a harder time absorbing their calcium. The liquid is usually
absorbed more easily than a powdered supplement.
Since they don't feel he has any respiratory issues, his breathing behavior must be something else. Have
you double checked his temperatures to be sure he isn't too hot or that he is warm enough?
I hope his tremors continue to reduce in frequency also.

Keep us posted on how he is doing.
Tracie
I have confirmed the temperatures are correct, 104-108F basking spot, 92 in hot side and 76 in cold side, the ambient air temp in the hot side says 90F. He did seem like he was too hot yesterday because he was very bright and huffing (as seen in the video) but he pooped and went back to normal colours and normal breathing again not long after i took the vid.

He doesnt do it all the time it seems to only be after he ate his morning meal. He sometimes will do it for a few minutes very subtly to the point you barely can see it and other times he will do it for over an hour and much more exaggerated like in the video I posted above. I used to think he was choking because one time he did this with a full black beard and the vet had to remove a large amount of kale in his throat. I have since then been feeding him much smaller pieces which are dipped in water to help with this.

He did it today for a few minutes, it was very subtle to the point you wouldnt notice without staring at him like I was and now hes in the middle near the lower temp basking spot (95f).

I will look into the liquid calcium and probiotics. My concern is that the calcium injection he got a few months ago didnt seem to have any effect on him. Since his phosphorus is also low, would it be a problem to offer so much calcium?
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Just a quick comment after seeing the video. If this happens mostly after he eats he may have developed a little more trouble swallowing . Just like humans, also other animals, as they get older certain things can begin to happen and all our body parts may not function as when we were young. Try offering smaller pieces of greens as well as insects to try to make it easier for him to swallow. It may or may not help but it's worth a try.
 

Members online

Still Needs Help

Latest resources

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Mirage is feeling sPiCy
Does this look like a healthy beardie
LarryTheLizard wrote on ForLeonard!'s profile.
Aww your profile picture is precious ❤️‍🩹
Hey! I'm planning on ordering a 4x2x2 for my next beardie but I'm worried about lighting. I have a UVA and a UVB but they are small (the UVA just being a bulb and the UVB being 12 ish inches?) My house is drafty so I need a strong light that puts off quite a good amount of heat, any suggestions?

Forum statistics

Threads
157,642
Messages
1,276,933
Members
76,994
Latest member
kubet11co
Top Bottom