Kazi - RIP my special Wee monkey.

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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby Drache613 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:47 pm

Hello,

How is Kazi doing today? The bloodwork, overall, looks fine. His liver & kidneys look like they are functioning with no complications according to the values. I was looking at the Uric acid & the AST which appear to be fine.
So he is regenerating his cells, or beginning to?
Those greens are perfectly fine & should not hinder iron absorption or calcium absorption.
Yes, IF he is anemic, then too much exercise will tire him out due to not enough oxygen in his blood & tissues. I would let him rest if he is tired. Did he have a high number of parasites that caused his anemia perhaps?
You are positive that Kazi is a male?
The avipow is excellent, whatever he is deficient in should help. I agree, the nutrabol is not complete.


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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby MissT » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:44 pm

Thanks for looking at those Tracie - I am curious, what is the creatine Kinase and what could cause its levels to be elevated? I tried googling it but I wasnt successful in finding much out!
The vet says he believes he is beginning to regenerate red blood cells, but again, that wont be clear until the re-test in January.
The initial fecal the vet did indicated what he believed to be a tapeworm... he sent a further sample away for full analysis but the results of that are still not in. I am pretty positive Kazi is a male - he has been sexed by 4 different people and all of them have been convinced he is male - is anemia more likely to be found in females?

Tracie, I also wanted to ask you, should I switch back to the minerall right away - I noticed today it has a good iron content which I thought might make it more suitable for him than the cricket dust. Also, the vet put a note on the avimix saying - initially use avimix daily, for 10 days then continue 3x per week - does that sound like a correct dosage? Im also curious, should I be using a calcium supplement along side it and if so, how many times per week would you suggest this?

Kazi did quite well today, for the most part. He ate 4 locusts again and he even ventured over to his salad bowl to take a few mouthfuls which I was really pleased about. He blatantly refused to take any more than 1ml of critical care. He got a little uncomfortable this afternoon tho. His tail and beard got a little dark for a while and he seemed to be struggling to find a comfortable position to sit in - this might sound strange but I dont know how else to describe it - it looked like he had tummy cramps. He settled down when he positioned himself, curled on his half log - his front legs were on the log, his back legs were on the floor and he had his body in an almost c shape.

Later, after this evenings bath, he decided to lie with his back legs on the rock and his front legs on the log so his tummy was just hanging in between - I guess there was not so much pressure on his tummy in that position. He snoozed on and off in that position for about 1.5 hours before I put him to bed (about 45 mins early) - I didnt want to move him too early when he looked so comfy!

But hes fast asleep now - he still isnt sleeping like a baby but he is gradually getting there!

Thanks guys!
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby puppytoes72 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:14 pm

That is awesome that he ate 4 locusts and even walked over to his salad and ate a few bites!! :blob5:

Im sending you a PM :D
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby DragonMomSandy » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:26 pm

I am glad to here that the vet is pretty positive that there is no internal bleeding. The lab results are promising and that it doesn't appear to be a problem with the liver or kidneys. I am so glad the vet could get the test done and the results quickly for you, it gives you a more specific route to take with his treatment. It's awesome that he's eating on his own too, can't blame him for wanting live food over the critical care.
When he was trying to get comfy, I'd say your description would be fitting, probably the gas bothering him.
I think it's awesome that you have put so much love and energy into helping Kazi! Pat yourself on the back, he's lucky to have a mommy like you.
Sandy

Assassin's thread: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=120068
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby puppytoes72 » Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:37 pm

DragonMomSandy wrote:I am glad to here that the vet is pretty positive that there is no internal bleeding. The lab results are promising and that it doesn't appear to be a problem with the liver or kidneys. I am so glad the vet could get the test done and the results quickly for you, it gives you a more specific route to take with his treatment. It's awesome that he's eating on his own too, can't blame him for wanting live food over the critical care.
When he was trying to get comfy, I'd say your description would be fitting, probably the gas bothering him.
I think it's awesome that you have put so much love and energy into helping Kazi! Pat yourself on the back, he's lucky to have a mommy like you.

I just sent her a PM saying the same thing Sandy! For a couple days before Jojo's abdominal surgery and a couple weeks afterwards she would stay in that same exact position.She even slept like that.They are such smart animals,they know what to do to make themselves comfortable :D :D
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby baby_geek » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:01 pm

If the vet suspects he has tapeworms then that could have caused his anaemia. The fact that there are immature cells in his blood means that his body is trying to compensate for the lack of cells by pushing the 'almost' developed ones from the bone marrow. The PCV (packed cell volume) is a little low and would probably be the reason the immature cells are there in the first place.

The high CK (creatine kinase) would be due to damage of either muscles, myocardium (heart), brain or intestine. If he has lost weight the breakdown of muscles could have caused it. I wouldn't expect it to be his heart or brain at all. If he had tapeworms that could also slightly increase his CK.

The fact his PCV and Hemoglobin are low is showing the anaemia. The PCV isn't severely low so that could be ok it is the hemoglobin that would be concerning as he is only able to carry about 50% of the O2 that he should for normal activity.

I've played with the contrast on his radiograph to see if I could see anything different and I came up with a few things...


The red line I've drawn is where his diaphragm sits (separates his thorax and abdomen) there is a blue circle around a blip/bleb in his lung. It loks like there is a little pocket of air that is pushing his lungs out. The edge on his right side (I'm assuming he was on his stomach for the radiograph) seems irregular to me. The left side is reasonably smooth. The air pocket seems to go up beyond his diaphragm as the bottom outside edge of his lung is not rounded like the other - again may not be significant. I am wondering if the lighter line is actually a tapeworm that we are seeing on the radiograph as his intestinal tract is not really visible in the picture. Was he given the Panacur before, after or at the time of the x-ray?
If the air is in his digestive tract then it would be wise to get things moving through as he will be alot more comfortable once it passes. If it is in the space around his digestive tract then massaging, laxatives and exercise is not going to help as there is no where for the air to go.
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How is he doing otherwise? How old is he again?
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby ChellyBeans » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:13 am

Baby_geek,

I wish you were my study partner when I was studying veterinary medicine. I love how you can explain it so well and you are SO right on!
Michelle Shields
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby MissT » Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:19 am

Sandy im glad you understood what I was on about there! I really just dont know what to do about the gas tho. The vet is not concerned about it and seems to think it will sort itself out over time - as Tracie suggested, the anemia and vitamin deficiency is likely to be causing the pooping issue which could have caused this gas build up which is making him uncomfortable but I just wish we could help him. He gets all the love and attention any beardie could wish for (he also has another mommy - my mother in law - who watches over him pretty much 24/7 and is brilliant with him)!

You know, if it hadnt been for this gassy build up, he wouldnt have been in so much pain and we still wouldnt realise there was anything wrong with him.... Im glad he trusts us enough to show us that he is ill so that we could help him!

Michelle, I thought I remembered something about Jojo having suspected 'gas pains' after her surgery so im sure you can relate to what I was describing!

Baby geek, that was really interesting how you analysed the x-ray. I did notice the rough edge to the right lung and the vet mentioned that this was most probably der to the pressure being placed on the lung from beneath it. The panacur was given after the x-ray. If it is in the space surrounding this digestive tract is there anything that will make him more comfortable? When I spoke with the vet on Friday he seemed pretty sure the air pocket had something to do with his intestines.

Kazi is doing quite well, its a slow process but I definitely see him making progress. He is 1 year 9 months old.

T
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby pscaulkins » Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:54 am

Did your vet do a side view x-ray? You would be able to tell the size of the issue better with a side view. Semi has had a similar issue and first my vet did a top x-ray then did a side one to see the air bubble better. Then a day later did a barium x-ray to see if it was related to the intestines such as a bulge but it wasn't. The only good thing with the barium x-ray is it cleaned his intestines out of gas. It's been almost 2 years and Semi is doing great. You can pm me and I will be more then happy to share with you what my vet and Dr. Wentz did to help Semi. Mint is great but it is a temporary gas remover.
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby DragonMomSandy » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:09 am

I am happy to hear that he's doing well today. Sounds like he's starting to bounce back. I hope if there is a tapeworm, that the vet can help you treat him without making too weak. The panacur is very rough on them and poor Kazi has been through so much already. Hopefully the treatment for the vit deficiency gets rid of the gas problems for good.

That's awesome that your mother-in-law is so concerned for Kazi too. I think my mother-in-law would be that way too (she's an animal nut like me-she's awesome), too bad she doesn't live closer. And, the gas issue did lead to getting the tests, that was a wise mommy decision on your part!

Baby-geek and Tracie
The analysis the two of you did of the lab results and x-ray are awesome! Hats off to you both! I understand some of the lab results and can pick out certain things on the x-ray, but, still learning and studying a lot of this so it's great to see the breakdown you both did. I think this not only helps MissT and Kazi, it helps a lot of us who are researching and studying these awesome creatures!
Sandy

Assassin's thread: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=120068
Cherri's thread: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=122898
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby baby_geek » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:00 am

Thanks guys! Im a registered animal health tech (like a registered nurse but for animals) and I haven't worked in a clinic in a while now but I'm more than happy to give my 2 cents and check in my books. Although I am no veterinarian I can bring the knowledge I have to the table. :)

I've never worked with beardies in specific but I do currently work with almost every other animal (from mice/rats to monkeys to sheep to pigs to rabbits to cats to llamas to guinea pigs... oh the list goes on and is ever changing!) However we also do have tegus and work with them a fair amount.

Getting a lateral (side) radiograph would be reasonably difficult with an awake lizard. He would have to be sedated or anaesthetized in order to safely do that. It would GREATLY help to be able to see where the bubble is in relation to his stomach/back and would probably help with where it is in relation to his lungs but it could be dangerous. A barium study would also really define his digestive tract but again it is VERY dehydrating unfortunately. If the gas is in the abdominal cavity but not in the intestines I'm not 100% sure what would be need to be done. There is the option of putting a tiny needle in and sucking the majority of it out or there is the old wait and see. In humans the pain can be quite bad and require pain meds. I don't know what is recommended for pain management in reptiles and what is safe (I just moved and my books are still in boxes :( ) so as soon as I can get to those I will let you know. It may be worth asking the vet for pain meds because he does, at times, seem so uncomfortable.

MissT - it is mommies like you that notice something seems a bit off and get the help needed. If you hadn't noticed he 'looked' uncomfortable and bloated it would have gotten much worse and may not have received the help he needed!

Wow, I've got to shorten these posts! They seem to get so long :P
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby pscaulkins » Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:21 am

Getting a lateral (side) radiograph would be reasonably difficult with an awake lizard. He would have to be sedated or anaesthetized in order to safely do that. It would GREATLY help to be able to see where the bubble is in relation to his stomach/back and would probably help with where it is in relation to his lungs but it could be dangerous. A barium study would also really define his digestive tract but again it is VERY dehydrating unfortunately. If the gas is in the abdominal cavity but not in the intestines I'm not 100% sure what would be need to be done. There is the option of putting a tiny needle in and sucking the majority of it out or there is the old wait and see. In humans the pain can be quite bad and require pain meds. I don't know what is recommended for pain management in reptiles and what is safe (I just moved and my books are still in boxes :( ) so as soon as I can get to those I will let you know. It may be worth asking the vet for pain meds because he does, at times, seem so uncomfortable


Not impossible at all. Semi was not anaestetized or sedated. Although, when I picked him up, the office said I had the most well behaved beardie they have ever seen. My vet told him "no" once and he stopped and looked at him. lol He was the life of the party at the vets office when I got there for the results. I took him home and thought about the next procedure and decided Semi didn't have anything to lose. He couldn't go on the way he was and I am the type that has to know what I am dealing with. Yes, barium is dehydrating but Semi has never been dehydrated and didn't even get a little dehydrated from the procedure. What it did was confirm the bubble had nothing to do with the intestines and it cleared his intestines of all gases. I was told it was a procedure that was stressful to the animal but Semi did not display any stress from it. :dontknow: Another draw back on barium is the dragon not pooping it all out. Semi has pooped every day for me and this was not an issue. I am not sure I would do it for a dragon that has issues pooping though.

There is a huge risk putting a needle in the bubble per my vet, you would have to sedate it, and there is a risk of puncturing the lung. Instead I decided to treat the cause. Gas can be formed from bacteria. I had two vets and a friend helping me. Semi has made a full recovery.
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby MissT » Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:54 pm

pscaulkins wrote:Not impossible at all. Semi was not anaestetized or sedated. Although, when I picked him up, the office said I had the most well behaved beardie they have ever seen. My vet told him "no" once and he stopped and looked at him. lol He was the life of the party at the vets office when I got there for the results. I took him home and thought about the next procedure and decided Semi didn't have anything to lose. He couldn't go on the way he was and I am the type that has to know what I am dealing with. Yes, barium is dehydrating but Semi has never been dehydrated and didn't even get a little dehydrated from the procedure. What it did was confirm the bubble had nothing to do with the intestines and it cleared his intestines of all gases.


I really am interested in anything you have to share about this - anything that can help me to help Kazi would be most appreciated. I would be worried about the dehydration of the barium tho, due to the dehydration issues we have been having with Kazi kately. He is having a follow up blood test in January so I will probably ask the vet to repeat the x-ray then and see how the situation is then and decide what to do next.

DragonMomSandy wrote:Baby-geek and Tracie
The analysis the two of you did of the lab results and x-ray are awesome! Hats off to you both! I understand some of the lab results and can pick out certain things on the x-ray, but, still learning and studying a lot of this so it's great to see the breakdown you both did. I think this not only helps MissT and Kazi, it helps a lot of us who are researching and studying these awesome creatures!


I would just like to second this comment, Baby-geek and Tracie - you have both been brilliant at analysing these things and everything you both say is really well backed up and explained - I really appreciate how much trouble you have gone to. But Dragonmomsandy, you have been a great information source as well - and to think, how we actually came across each other lol!

And to everyone else, Michelle, Vicky, Diane, Gina, Beardie parents, your help and support and sharing of experiences is really appreciated - I always know when I come on here in a panic there will be someone to reply with something to calm me down!

Now a Kazi update - he had a brilliant day!! He ate a few bites of salad, 3 locusts (with vits) and about 1ml of critical care (he is getting quite adamant that he does not want it!) He also had a lovely poop this evening in his bath and it was the nicest poop he has done in a long time - he literally hit the water, walked to the other side of the bath, did the poop wiggle and it was done, no stressin or massaging needed! And for the first time in months, his urate was not hard and crumbly!! It was a little yellow but Im still really pleased with it (yes, im pleased with poop - you know you all love it too!) He put himself to bed under his log at about 8pm - he hasnt went to sleep under there in months! Hes now wrapped up in his blanket and sleeping like a baby!! YAY!!!

Baby-geek, I think my posts are still longer than yours lol!
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby Drache613 » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:09 pm

Hello,

How is Kazi doing today?
I think you should switch to the Miner-All, it has better iron levels, yes.
The CK levels are not always indicative of anything such as muscle trauma or even brain injury, etc. The levels were not that high, but they can elevate from something as simple as a tail stick to draw blood. That, in my opinion, is the only reason that they were elevated at all. There is nothing to indicate that he has any injury or brain dysfunction. Possibly a little bit of stress though, from all of the gas.
As already stated, his body will gradually replace the immature red blood cells with mature red blood cells when he gets stronger. He is producing more red blood cells, & that is what is important, they will eventually even out.
I think that it will work itself out, but, as you know, with reptiles, everything takes double to triple the time that it would with mammals, or humans because they have such unique metabolisms.
Yes, it is very easy actually to get a lateral x-ray of a bearded dragon. That would help to see the placement of the air bubble, but I don't think it is necessary. You can already see where the bubble is at, & since it is pushing on the lung & stomach area, once it diffuses & decreases Kazi should start to feel better.

I hope that he feels better soon! Keep us posted.

Tracie
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Re: Kazi - pooping problems - anaemic - blood results included

Postby MissT » Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:13 pm

Hi Tracie, he had a great day today, complete with eating and pooping which I am pleased about.... he was a little 'twitchy' on his right side this evening but nothing which seemed to really bother him. I think I mentioned this but I am supposed to give him the avimix daily for 10 days then 3 times per week - does that sound ok? Im worried about overdosing him with calcium so should I wait and begin the minerall after the initial 10 days perhaps once or twice a week?

Thanks again Tracie!
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